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Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:02 pm
by Neon
Hey guys,
I'm mainly a house producer with a little dubstep on the side but normally techniques are the same for the majority of genres.
As dubstep has a lot of emphasis on the sub bass I thought I'd get some insight from you guys. So my question is this:
How do you get a nice solid sub-bass?
I've tried everything from setting up 2 sine waves, spreading them an octave apart and applying a lo pass filter and playing around with the settings, to just using a single sine wave and maybe trying camel phat. But after this I'll listen to something like Pendulum or Bar 9 and look at their Sub's and there's just something so warm and in your face about them that my sub just lacks .... a lot.
So all I'm asking for is some step by step approaches including any synths / plug ins etc you guys use to get a heavy sub.
Cheers
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:05 pm
by Neon
Also before I get flamed by some children about me saying "techniques are the same for the majority of genres" I was referring to techniques such as creating sub bass, EQing and what not.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:06 pm
by Rekah
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:15 pm
by Sharmaji
single sine wave, no compression, no eq.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:17 pm
by Ongelegen
Sharmaji wrote:single sine wave, no compression, no eq.
it's really that simple
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:29 pm
by narcissus
i just don't know what these people mean when they say the big producers have "something extra" that they want..
i mean, it could be they're midrange basses have some stuff down there in the sub range that is also playing with your ears.. but for the most part the best subbass is always just sine wave.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:41 pm
by gantzgraf
i think the source of your sine wave is important. i try to get my sub sounds from native instruments MASSIVE but it doesnt seem to work. maybe all those guys are using some hardware analog synthesizers for the sine wave
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:37 pm
by slothrop
Most hardware analogues don't even have a sine wave.
My guess is that the people who get it sounding so good do it by a) getting the right pitch so it's deep enough to feel without being too deep to actually reproduce, b) getting the level right and c) getting the rest of the mix right so they can give the sub that's actually meant to be there plenty of welly without loads of other low end crud muddying up the mix.
I did a quick blind test on a sample of two sine wave oscillators a while back - with a mathematically perfect sine from the wave generator in Audacity and one nasty degraded wavetable sine from a freeware VST. As far as I could tell they were exactly the same.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:05 am
by knell
narcissus wrote:i just don't know what these people mean when they say the big producers have "something extra" that they want..
they just dont know that the "something extra" is a proper mixdown and mastering in post-production, like most big production songs have
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:44 am
by wayoftheworld
something else to consider is how the other sounds, and the arrangement in general, affect ones perception of the sub. i think a producer who really knows how to properly build and release energy is going to have bigger sounding subs than a lesser producer/arrangement, even if both producers are using the same sine wave and processing.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:33 am
by jaydot
I attempted an 808 sub bass once but it didn't go so well.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:43 am
by Brisance
gantzgraf wrote:i think the source of your sine wave is important. i try to get my sub sounds from native instruments MASSIVE but it doesnt seem to work. maybe all those guys are using some hardware analog synthesizers for the sine wave
Thats because Massive has a shit sine, use the simplest synth you have, I think its retarded to use cpu munchihg, RAMhog synths for a sine anyway.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:42 am
by paravrais
knell wrote:narcissus wrote:i just don't know what these people mean when they say the big producers have "something extra" that they want..
they just dont know that the "something extra" is a proper mixdown and mastering in post-production, like most big production songs have
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:14 am
by Njamimars
I always create my sub-basses with 3x Osc.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:20 am
by JBE
3xOSC, 1 sine wave. No eq, no effects, no filters.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:43 pm
by Basic A
This forum is king of lecture about sine subs, and yeah, I get it, becuase they are the best way to make woofers move, but people need to remember theres more then one way to skin a cat.
consider :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDl8XoxUXwQ <<<< not a sine wave.
But.
OP.
If your using a sine wave for your sub, there is no need for more then one/layering/unison, no need for eqs, and no need for filters. Sine waves are single frequency and layering is a sure way to make them disappear audibly.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:07 pm
by stereotactic
Thats because Massive has a shit sine
Surely as a single frequency, it would be difficult make one sine worse than another? It's a pure tone.
Totally agree though, it is a waste of resources to use a power synth like massive for something as rudimentary as a sub.
OP, there is no point in low passing a sine wave as there are no harmonics. There is nothing to filter.
I have trouble getting the 'full' sound you are after too. Don't mistake a traditional sub for a low bass though, the sub (sine) sits under the other elements to add weight at the low end, and is there to be felt more than heard. It maybe what you are hearing in the tracks you mention i.e Bar 9, Pendulum etc is a combination of different layers and elements, processed together beautifully (both those artists production skills are immense).
I posted a while back with a similar question regarding deep, dubby bass and got some really informative answers, can't remember the name of the thread now but I used Breakage as an example so maybe do a search for that?
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:16 pm
by JBE
Basic A wrote:This forum is king of lecture about sine subs, and yeah, I get it, becuase they are the best way to make woofers move, but people need to remember theres more then one way to skin a cat.
consider :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDl8XoxUXwQ <<<< not a sine wave.
But.
OP.
If your using a sine wave for your sub, there is no need for more then one/layering/unison, no need for eqs, and no need for filters. Sine waves are single frequency and layering is a sure way to make them disappear audibly.
Agreed, you can make a sub shaking bass without the use of sines, but when asking for specifically a sub bass that's the most basic of ways to do it. That's what I took from the question, OP was just wanting some suggestions on how to make just a basic solid sub bass.
I will also say that you can make a sub bass in massive just as easily as any other VST, the only problem is the sine waves in massive don't sound like just pure sine waves, at least that's what I take from it when I listen to it. But, drop a low pass on filter 1, and make sure that first OSC is sitting only on filter 1 rather than the default which is sitting right on Filter 1 and 2. With the low pass filter it will assure that there isn't any extra harmonic content on the sine that can take away from that low sub frequency. You can beef it up a bit more by turning on the eq and boosting the low shelf which will help bring out some of that "boom" in the sub frequencies.
I found that literally the most basic of synths tend to make the best pure sub basses. This is why I use the 3xOSC. Just your basic 3 osc subtractive synth, not a lot of bells and whistles but for a sub it's perfect. Just about every DAW out there usually comes packed with at least one instrument like this, so no matter what you use you should have that as an option.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:28 pm
by Brisance
stereotactic wrote:
Surely as a single frequency, it would be difficult make one sine worse than another? It's a pure tone.
That's the case. Massive's is not a pure tone.
Re: Solid Sub Bass
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:38 pm
by BLAHBLAHJAH
Don't treat it it like a bukkake girl - make sure it's got plenty of clean space, high pass thtine gs that rob the frequency space of the sub without improving it's sound