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Hello all,

This will probably insight some debate but it's currently what I'm struggling with! Obviously to make good music you need a fair degree of good music knowledge which loosely translated is a knowledge of music theory (this is over and above knowing what seems to sound "good") - so like any producer wanting to hone their skills I set about learning music theory, got the books on Music Theory and the chord wheel etc, but so far it seems like it's doing more harm than good!

Now instead of bashing out ideas based on a melody which sounds good I feel like it has to be kicked into a scale or chord progression (which as music theory usually teaches you initially, is the major scale and chord progressions which are always "diatonic" (hopefully thats the right word) to some degree - whereas dubstep/dnb should be unpredictable and dissonant to a large degree).

So what's everyone elses views on learning music theory, has everyone like me started off wanting to make tunes, realising that musical knowledge fits in somewhere and learning music theory, ended up getting railroaded by the need to make nice chord progressions and melodies which "fit" and ending up in a confused mess? Or has it been a lot more simplified?

does it sound good ? yes ?
are all the notes in the same given scale ? no ?
do we give a fuck ?

no but, the reason u practice music theory scales etc is not to sit there and "ah im making this melody in these chords/ notes/ scales" whatever.. but u get a better "ear" for it so u can easier throw out some good melodies and instantly u can hear they sound good without having to really take much notice of which notes is really hitting..
it will not do you harm. in no way ever can practicing music make u a less musician -.-'

Nacklewicket wrote:no but, the reason u practice music theory scales etc is not to sit there and "ah im making this melody in these chords/ notes/ scales" whatever.. but u get a better "ear" for it so u can easier throw out some good melodies and instantly u can hear they sound good without having to really take much notice of which notes is really hitting..
it will not do you harm. in no way ever can practicing music make u a less musician -.-'

Very true, I think it's just the way they're like "These are the chords on a harmonic major scale, and this is a perfect/imperfect cadence and these are the chords used...." - now for dubstep we all need to completely ignore these principles and still make something that sounds like a musical masterpiece which takes you on that "Musical journey" that all the theorists talk about...!

I think there's definitely a market for someone who teaches music theory for creating tunes that take you on a journey of ear splitting anger and darkness!

You can either give up and keep doing what you are used to, or you can push on and find out the theory behind all that stuff that doesn't fit the basic rules you have learned so far. Theory is there for the music. Not the other way round. If it sounds good, then it is up to music theory to explain why.

I picked up some theory playing rock music. Then I learned production so I didn't have to hang round with drummers.

I think music theory is generally a good thing to know, if you're about to break rules it's nice to know you're doing it...rules and music don't work for me, it's like being told what to feel, and the progression of music through the ages and to this day is through breaking a few rules and doing things differently and generally just messing up the signal chain...so i say do what you feel!!!

Jazz tears up the music theory book and uses it as toilet paper.

If it sounds good to your ear, and to other ears who cares? Music theory don't give you a better ear for mixing and mastering. Music theory is more for composers and instrument players.

I'd rather learn how to make my big fat bassline sit nicely with other elements in my track.

The more you play the keyboard, the more you will naturally click. Scales and chords are good to know, but that's about it. Many of the scales you wouldn't even use anyway.

I wouldn't say it's useless. If you want to make dark stuff it's just as much theory as making major stuff. For example, even if you are working in a certain scale you can still thrown in a some accidentals or dissonant chords. Dark and dissonant isn't anything new. I forget which tune it was but Dvorak made a super dark piece back in the day that blew my mind. You can hear classic dissonance in some of Tchaikovsky's stuff too.

I'd say learn however much you need to in order to know where you want to go with your songs. I don't always know what chord im playing if it's not a standard major/minor/seventh chord, but I do know that it'll be dark and dissonant since it has some accidentals in it.

You have to know the rules in order to break them.

alphacat wrote:You have to know the rules in order to know, your breaking them.

Fixed

alphacat wrote:You have to know the rules in order to break them.

alphacat wrote:You have to know the rules in order to break them.

That's not true. In some cultures and religions rules are unintentionally broken because it's what they know or are taught and it works for them. Same applies to any other rule, music, life, culture, religion.

People forget, music is a form of expression. It's art. If the painter feels they achieved what they wanted and their picture is complete they don't give a **** what people viewing it think. Again, same applies to music. It's just some music tends to catch onto the mass audience because the producer/artist has struck a common cord (not chord) or followed a current trend.

GV1 wrote:

alphacat wrote:You have to know the rules in order to break them.

That's not true. In some cultures and religions rules are unintentionally broken because it's what they know or are taught and it works for them. Same applies to any other rule, music, life, culture, religion.

People forget, music is a form of expression. It's art. If the painter feels they achieved what they wanted and their picture is complete they don't give a **** what people viewing it think. Again, same applies to music. It's just some music tends to catch onto the mass audience because the producer/artist has struck a common cord (not chord) or followed a current trend.

I wouldn't call them unintentionally broken then: their rules are just different.

I'm willing to bet the majority of dubstep, electro, drum and bass, hip hop producers don't understand music theory and break rules because they didn't know the rule existed in the first place. Which goes against "You need to know rules to break them".

How can learning music theory be harmful to music production? If you are finding that it is distracting during your production process, then don't try to learn music theory at the exact same time that you're in a project. Do it separately.










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GV1 wrote:I'm willing to bet the majority of dubstep, electro, drum and bass, hip hop producers don't understand music theory and break rules because they didn't know the rule existed in the first place. Which goes against "You need to know rules to break them".

True. The majority of dubstep/electro/DnB/hip hop also sounds like shit to me.

Maybe not the majority but there's a lot of junk out there. I don't think there are really any 'rules' per se. For example, if you are doing something and think 'wow a dark note/chord here would be nice' then it helps to know what some possibilities are.

Don't know if that made sense, but maybe ill put it this way. Just because you know the notes that make up a scale it doesn't mean you have to use those notes. However, by knowing what notes make the scle you can figure out what accidentals might add something to your composition. Of course you don't need to know theory to do that, but it'll probably make things go faster if you do.

GV1 wrote:Jazz tears up the music theory book and uses it as toilet paper.

If it sounds good to your ear, and to other ears who cares? Music theory don't give you a better ear for mixing and mastering. Music theory is more for composers and instrument players.

I'd rather learn how to make my big fat bassline sit nicely with other elements in my track.

The more you play the keyboard, the more you will naturally click. Scales and chords are good to know, but that's about it. Many of the scales you wouldn't even use anyway.

The counter argument is that you will get new ideas and have new creative inspiration every time you learn something.
Try different modes.
Try the dorian scale.
Try the blues scale.

Don't forget rhythm.
If you don't understand any theory whatsoever, you can't play rhythms and you're not making any dubstep.

knowing theory makes one capable of composing with a conscious artistic urge.
If you don't know harmonic theory, you are incapable of conceiving ideas based on harmony. So it's guess and listen, guess and listen.
Which is fine, but there you go.

As far as melody is concerned, i didn't draw the same conclusion because many theory-ignorant people can whistle an original tune. They just have no idea why the intervals of notes make up a melody, because that's, again, harmonic information.

I've never heard a poet mention that a lack of knowledge about grammar made them a better writer.