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Right now I'm working on masters for a label that i've been doing work for for the better part of a year. US label, US producers, releasing some great music, headed by 2 dudes who are making some pretty sizeable names for them.

The 2 tunes that are going on this release are stylistically, sonically, and musically very different, and so besides getting them to sound fantastic on their own, the goal is to make them work together as a single release.

so, with that said-- 1 mix is pretty loud, topping out at -2 or so. I was also sent a mix of stems for this one, which gives me a bit more leeway to make certain midrange decisions. The other mix is much quieter, and also a less-agressive tune, so i need to do some tonal balance to both to get them to gel together, yet hit where they need to hit and have a clean, full low-end.

NONE of this has to do with the inherent volume, level, RMS, or peaks of the original tunes. As a mastering engineer, yes, I have more space to work with if you don't have peaks going into distortion or an RMS so high that i can't create a fuller-feeling tune. But if you're going for a loud-sounding mix... honestly, forget about it.

I use gain, much like most other ME's, to sculpt the tone of a song, and i'm forever turning things up coming out of 1 process, and then turning it back down to get another tone out of another process. I may want to hit something with transistors fairly hard because i know i can shave off some peaks and get a clean-but-edgy presence out of the song that way, and then use something with tubes in it to make the low-mids seem fuller-- but just barely drive those tubes. I might clip my converter going back in to get a dB (which rarely works for me tho i know it does for plenty other folks), and then bring it back down in the digital domain so that I can add a lot of high end.

etc, etc. The only time "Volume" really matters is at the absolute end, when i start bringing things up against a limiter or compressor and judging how they compare, level-wise, to reference material... but otherwise, the actual volume of a track is a very small part of my concern.

what DOES concern me is getting the right tone in a song, getting the right balance of weight, clarity, and impact, and on down to extremely nerdy shit like absolute phase.

so in short-- it's OKAY if your tune is quiet. you can turn it up when it's played out. Worry more about the actual musical details-- not just the notes, but how it feels, if it's musically accomplishing what it needs to do. Anyone else on the receiving end, if they like it enough, they'll turn it up. If Dj's like it enough, they'll turn it up. If crowds like it, the dj's will keep playing it and in that case-- chances are someone will sort out the mastering & volume FOR you.

but volume really, really, really should be the least of your concerns.

now back to finishing up these awesome tunes

i've been struggling so much facing a constant tradeoff between dynamics and volume.. for my own tunes, just trying to limit and bring up my master level to enjoy and share... for work, I have to try to get the loudest mixes possible because clients browse through huge libraries when picking tunes and louder always jumps out as "better", so long as everything else is more or less equal. Its fucking hard, thanks for the tips tho.

cheers man-- yeah the "final product" needs to live up to market demands... in theory. When you're dealing with catalog music, sure, you're competing to jump out of the speakers as much as possible.

For actual music though, especially for something that's going to be used to move people--not just as background music-- sonically sculpt it to make a statement. It'll put you that much farther towards the goal.

Sharmaji wrote:so in short-- it's OKAY if your tune is quiet. you can turn it up when it's played out. Worry more about the actual musical details-- not just the notes, but how it feels, if it's musically accomplishing what it needs to do. Anyone else on the receiving end, if they like it enough, they'll turn it up. If Dj's like it enough, they'll turn it up. If crowds like it, the dj's will keep playing it and in that case-- chances are someone will sort out the mastering & volume FOR you.

but volume really, really, really should be the least of your concerns.

Actually i recently read an article which really made me start caring much more about levels and it really makes a difference.
I found out that 0 db VU was -20 dbFS, but its suggested that you keep your mixes below at least 12db.
The reason for that is that when you work in your DAW youre propably working at 24, 32, or maybe even higher bit rates, which
can handle much higher levels, but when you export your files down to 16bit wavs or mp3's ready to play out, the audio file cant
store the information due to the reduced bitrate and youll end up with a nasty digital clipping.
That is also what happens when you hear bad audio on soundcloud or myspace, and you blame them saying "soundcloud ruined my
track" and what not.
You may feel that the tune is really quiet during the work process and mixdown but if you send a 32bit file peaking at -12dBFS
to an ME he can set the project to 16bit for digital mastering and get the hot levels you want without the nasty digital clipping
caused by reduced bitrates.
Its good to learn about levels especially in digital audio because you just have to learn to prepare audio for reduced bitrates.

Im just starting to incorporate these teqniques into my music so if youre checking to see if im full of shit, i just want to say that
the tunes i have up is not mixed down with this teqnique...

Wise words.

If you get the tone right, the level pretty much looks after itself.

I agree 100% and I've always said this as well; even though I know fuck all about mastering, it always seemed pointless to try and make my shit ultra-loud at the risk of changing the sound when I could just turn the gain up on the DJ mixer.

Also, I had the opportunity to hear unmastered tunes from Digital (the dnb producer), and they were QUIET AS FUCK. And if you know Digital, you know he is responsible for some of the heaviest bass music ever made. So yeah, put that in yer pipe! =P

It scares me that someones mastering engineer went on a forum to ask how to master their tunes…

+3 wrote:It scares me that someones mastering engineer went on a forum to ask how to master their tunes…

Who was that?!

I've gotten to a point where I'm real happy with the tones and warmth of my mixdowns. Getting warm organic subs and drums, but still with a clarity and crispness. One thing that has been twisting my melon of late it's getting vocals sat right in the tune. I hear bare pop tunes with an amount of mid to high range melodic content, but with th vocal cutting through the mix. Bonkers with Dizee is a good example. That reese sound and Dizee vocals don't fuck each other up, every time I've tried something simlar it sounds like a mess. Even though I'm makIng freq space! Practice I guess. It's annoying mainly because it shits me up about playing that stuff out on a rig.

+3 wrote:It scares me that someones mastering engineer went on a forum to ask how to master their tunes…

Oh I dunno... there've been quite a few times where I've wanted to ask the world 'how the f#ck am I supposed to master this?!'

Sharm, can you offer any tips on improving phase correlation on wierd sounds like pads and shit? I feel like my basses/midranges/drums/ect all correlate fairly well, but my pads and really anything kinda floaty-synthy seems to have some real issues in mono, and i noticed you mentioned absolute phase in your little tangent...

i know alot of others have problems with this too, so, thought Id ask...

Basic A wrote:Sharm, can you offer any tips on improving phase correlation on wierd sounds like pads and shit? I feel like my basses/midranges/drums/ect all correlate fairly well, but my pads and really anything kinda floaty-synthy seems to have some real issues in mono, and i noticed you mentioned absolute phase in your little tangent...

i know alot of others have problems with this too, so, thought Id ask...

things like pads... i wouldn't get really wound up about it. Besides, having something that moves around alot, via phase, provides a nice balance to a mix that's got a real solid center of bass/kick/snare.

In general, as a producer i'm really cavalier about pads-- i'll compress & limit the hell out of them, and pretty aggressively bandpass them as well-- 36db/octave rolloffs, etc. letting things move from right-left, but controlling the dynamic range of that movement, can really improve things.

If it pulses when the whole tune is summed to mono... is that a bad thing? In stereo, you've got it pulsing from right to left, while in mono, it'll pulse in volume.

by "absolute phase," i mean that the phase of the signal stays the same between processes. makes a difference in terms of quality, as processes build up.

I don't agree.

You need both tone and level if you wish to please the maximum number
of listeners.

As always in mastering it's a balance between improvements and detriments and the engineers skill
in hitting nail on head and the fact is increasing level is NOT always detrimental when you are using the right tools
to do so. You can dissappear up your own arse over intellectualizing the process.

Ears are quicker than thoughts, like feeling is quicker than seeing. (as taught by my old Kung Fu teacher)
Often first impressions are spot on.

pete bubonic wrote:

+3 wrote:It scares me that someones mastering engineer went on a forum to ask how to master their tunes…

Who was that?!

I've gotten to a point where I'm real happy with the tones and warmth of my mixdowns. Getting warm organic subs and drums, but still with a clarity and crispness. One thing that has been twisting my melon of late it's getting vocals sat right in the tune. I hear bare pop tunes with an amount of mid to high range melodic content, but with th vocal cutting through the mix. Bonkers with Dizee is a good example. That reese sound and Dizee vocals don't fuck each other up, every time I've tried something simlar it sounds like a mess. Even though I'm makIng freq space! Practice I guess. It's annoying mainly because it shits me up about playing that stuff out on a rig.

Yeah I've only done one track with untreated vocals, and the stuff I learned still boggles me, e.g. how I could cut out a HUGE amount of the lower-mid frequencies and just boost the highs and how the vocals would cut through the mix better yet not sound like they were high-passed for some reason. I still don't understand it, but try doing stuff like that, also adding a VERY slight chorus can do wonders here without changing the shape of the vocals.

safeandsound wrote:I don't agree.

You need both tone and level if you wish to please the maximum number
of listeners.

As always in mastering it's a balance between improvements and detriments and the engineers skill
in hitting nail on head and the fact is increasing level is NOT always detrimental when you are using the right tools
to do so. You can dissappear up your own arse over intellectualizing the process.

Ears are quicker than thoughts, like feeling is quicker than seeing. (as taught by my old Kung Fu teacher)
Often first impressions are spot on.

That's not always what it's about though. I am not trying to make pop music for the FM. I am kinda tired of that crushed loud sound and how every tune levels itself for the dj. When I started it was not this way and it was one of the hardest things to pull off, getting the transitions right from track to track. I screwed myself up for a while trying to get mixes loud and I forgot about the important thing. Now I am back to just getting it sound the way I want it in the ear. I think looking at meters visually has a way of influencing the ears in the wrong way. I am not really saying that you are wrong I am just saying it's not what everyone is after. I have been working with the same ME for 2 years now and he does know how to get some volume out of my tunes but I quit trying to please him so much lol.

pete bubonic wrote:getting vocals sat right in the tune

if we're talking about a modern vocal sound fitting into underground EDM:

compress while recording, maybe compress again in the mix, limit for sure. eq-wise you can cut lows and brighten up, but watch for silibance-- depends on the singer, mic, & session (this is something that those cheap $100 chinese condensers are awful at).

For the kind of music we're discussing here, nless you're working with a very experienced singer on a lovely mic, vocal recordings sans compression almost always catch far more dynamic detail that you need.

if the vocal's really dynamic and you want to keep some of that energy, but reduce the dynamic range so that it feels more up front in the mix, parallel compression can help.

@safe&sound, i'm not quite sure where you got the sense i was directing my orig. post to ME's, and not producers. Of course it's part of your job to match level, whether or not we're discussing the loudness war. My point is that, for a producer, this endless battle for volume is pointless.

Thanks to Dave and Macc and the others silly enough to have offered your wisdom to swine. You guys really have straightened my act out, I used to do duuuurty deads, and I did them dirt cheap. I used to fight, just battle, with headroom. That is largely gone, now I actually battle with the mix itself.

I don't know how many more times, in how many different ways you guys can say the same thing. But please do keep saying it.

Re tracking with compression. I'm doing this now for the first time, and I luuuuv it. Not once have I been like, damn I need more dynamic range, instead, it's like damn, I still need a little more compression and a vst can competently handle it. Everything is so much easier further down the line.

Re the vocals, I cannot mix vocals, never been able to, but one thing, as in all things, pay attention to the first, second, third, fourth octaves above your original root sound. If you have to eq cut to make space, those higher freqs can do a good job of convincing the ear that the fundamental is larger/louder than it really is.

As far as I understood the first post you are mastering some tracks. You are also a producer.
Mastering is mastering whether you are a mastering engineer or otherwise, the very same principals
should apply.

The emphasis was on tone and level affects tone. It was suggested that level was tones poor cousin when they
are actually inseperable through a signal chain (which the OP already understands from what was written in the first post)

Abz, I did not mention anything about metering, matching levels or crushing things for FM radio (which incidently is
not a valid reason for a high RMS / perceived level track) I am not sure where that trilogy came from ?

One thing Dubstep producers really need to worry about IMO, is overly wide stereo images below 200Hz
which will vanish when played on a pirate radio station. (broadcasting largely in mono), I have noticed there are many more
pirate broadcasts of Dubstep programmes over the last year. (in the UK anyway)

It's an interesting disussion from an actual producer and not a surprise that ME's chime in.

Sharmaji wrote:

pete bubonic wrote:getting vocals sat right in the tune

if we're talking about a modern vocal sound fitting into underground EDM:

compress while recording, maybe compress again in the mix, limit for sure. eq-wise you can cut lows and brighten up, but watch for silibance-- depends on the singer, mic, & session (this is something that those cheap $100 chinese condensers are awful at).

For the kind of music we're discussing here, nless you're working with a very experienced singer on a lovely mic, vocal recordings sans compression almost always catch far more dynamic detail that you need.

if the vocal's really dynamic and you want to keep some of that energy, but reduce the dynamic range so that it feels more up front in the mix, parallel compression can help.

One of the lads I used to live with always used to record via a compressor, but what difference does it actually make if you do it live or to the actual audio at a later date?

I'm finding a lot of the time the vocal is too predominant in the mix and I catch far too much dynamic detail.

I'll give live compression a go though. And i'll have a trawl though the MIc Compendium to see what's good for vocals right now. joker said he though using a decent pre amp (I'm currently using the built in to my shit behringer desk) made a world of difference to his vocal recordings. Which I like the sound of because it's mad cheaper, I get the feeling he already a nice vocal mic and his pre amp was letting him down.

nowaysj wrote: I used to fight, just battle, with headroom. That is largely gone, now I actually battle with the mix itself.

How nicely put

pete bubonic wrote:

Sharmaji wrote:

pete bubonic wrote:getting vocals sat right in the tune

if we're talking about a modern vocal sound fitting into underground EDM:

compress while recording, maybe compress again in the mix, limit for sure. eq-wise you can cut lows and brighten up, but watch for silibance-- depends on the singer, mic, & session (this is something that those cheap $100 chinese condensers are awful at).

For the kind of music we're discussing here, nless you're working with a very experienced singer on a lovely mic, vocal recordings sans compression almost always catch far more dynamic detail that you need.

if the vocal's really dynamic and you want to keep some of that energy, but reduce the dynamic range so that it feels more up front in the mix, parallel compression can help.

One of the lads I used to live with always used to record via a compressor, but what difference does it actually make if you do it live or to the actual audio at a later date?

I'm finding a lot of the time the vocal is too predominant in the mix and I catch far too much dynamic detail.

I'll give live compression a go though. And i'll have a trawl though the MIc Compendium to see what's good for vocals right now. joker said he though using a decent pre amp (I'm currently using the built in to my shit behringer desk) made a world of difference to his vocal recordings. Which I like the sound of because it's mad cheaper, I get the feeling he already a nice vocal mic and his pre amp was letting him down.

I always thought compressing on the way in was a hangover from the olden days to stop peaks driving tape too much?
Of course it also frees up your compressor for use with other things...