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Now before this thread gets locked, please let me explain! I just want to get a discussion going on here - I'm not wanting to discuss the "boobs and ass" thread, but rather some of the more interesting issues LACE brought up in relation to it. I've been wondering about whether objectification isn't a necessary component of both masculine and feminine sexuality for a while and wanted to ask a few sensible questions, and have a sensible discussion.

If I may... one of the things I found a bit difficult to digest regarding feminism is the tendency among some feminists to "demonise" male sexuality as something abhorrent. Can you effectively motivate, rather than assert, your claim that men looking at nude women is in some way creating a crisis in the patterns of interactivity between men and women? Is the having of sexual desire towards a woman something which should be hidden or done away with? Do you think it's fair that the affirmation of female sexuality seems to go hand in hand with a denial of male sexuality? Are sex toys, for instance, not literally an objectification of the male body? By abstracting from the lived, engaged masculine body and intending purely upon the objective form is this not a type of depersonalisation too? What justifies the latter but not the former?

I'm not denying that there are certain maladies in the patterns of interactivity between males and females (and this works both ways) but I am wondering whether the expression of sexual desire is actually responsible, and whether a certain element of objectification isn't just a necessary component of sexuality for both genders.

Interesting discussion.

Look at the Slut Walk Movement that started up after that cop told some female college students that to avoid rape they shouldn't dress like they were asking for it.

what do you think of burkas?

REMOVED

^

looking at women = sexist

making women wear a burka = sexist

'posting tits to get a reaction'

I swear getting some sort of reaction is the only reason anyone would post on a forum or engage with anything in any way.

wub wrote:Interesting discussion.

Look at the Slut Walk Movement that started up after that cop told some female college students that to avoid rape they shouldn't dress like they were asking for it.

A couple of my (feminist) friends are attending one of those in the UK. Extremely insensitive of that police officer really... and obviously a pretty poorly informed statement too.

Also, mods - is it not possible to just delete troll posts so we can actually discuss things properly and learn from one another, rather than locking the entire thread? Maybe a couple of seven day bans wouldn't go amiss?

that burka picture was showing that what some perceive as 'objectification' others might see as sexual liberation.

Is it not just in our nature from way back to look at women and decide weather they'd make good mothers? She has wide hips - she can have lots of kids for me. She has clear skin and eyes - she is free from diseases so will not die or give me sub par offspring.

cosmic surgeon wrote:Also, mods - is it not possible to just delete troll posts so we can actually discuss things properly and learn from one another, rather than locking the entire thread? Maybe a couple of seven day bans wouldn't go amiss?

well quite...

there's different moderating styles at work to say the least. either way we're better off having a separate thread like this where there's a chance for intelligent discussion if you want to address the issues at hand, rather than having the same old WE WANT TITTIES threads

I think it's rather ridiculous that people draw a line, where a woman is a sexual object on one side of it and a personality on the other. I'll see a woman who's attractive pass me by and think to myself that I'd wanna fuck her, but does that necessarily mean that I don't think there's a person inside there either? I don't think so. It's just that this is the only part of her that I'm aware of and thus can judge. I like to fuck so... fuckability is on my radar.

You know. One double standard I fail to understand is how it's ok to judge a person by their brains, but not by their appearance. Why are people who judge someone on their intelligence somehow better than people who judge them on their appearance? Aren't both 'intelligence' and 'appearance' merely 1 piece of the complex puzzle that makes a person a 'person' in the first place? What do either aspects say about how compassionate, empathetic, friendly and helpful they are?

Judging anyone on 1 aspect of their personality is shallow, but it's ok to be shallow if a shallow impression is all you get. The reason people get defensive when people are shallow about appearance is because it's of sexual nature and people generally are uncomfortable when it comes to sexuality.

To limit porn to being 'objectifying to women' is a double standard as was, as you sort of touched on in your post. It's objectifying of people. How often is there an interview with the male performer beforehand? How often do we see their faces?

People can be both sexual objects and rocket scientists... and caring.. and funny and easy going and empathetic.. different aspects of someone's personality are of importance under different circumstances. And when I watch porn, the thing I mostly care about is the sexual aspect of a woman's personality. When I'm listening to music by a woman, I mostly care about her as an artist.

cosmic surgeon wrote:I've been wondering about whether objectification isn't a necessary component of both masculine and feminine sexuality for a while and wanted to ask a few sensible questions, and have a sensible discussion.

Ha, that's never gonna happen.

Men are just natural pervs, it's not their fault, hahaha.
But seriously I don't really see anything wrong with men looking at the female body. There's just the problem with how women are treated sometimes because of this. It's the danger of women not being taken seriously when it comes to important matters because the males are thinking about what her bra size is, or how much out of 10 does her arse score. You can think it, but just don't let it get in the way of how you treat a woman.

I dunno how many girls would agree with me though, I've hung around boys for so long I may have been desensitised to this and totally missed the point.

Genevieve wrote:I think it's rather ridiculous that people draw a line, where a woman is a sexual object on one side of it and a personality on the other. I'll see a woman who's attractive pass me by and think to myself that I'd wanna fuck her, but does that necessarily mean that I don't think there's a person inside there either? I don't think so. It's just that this is the only part of her that I'm aware of and thus can judge. I like to fuck so... fuckability is on my radar.

You know. One double standard I fail to understand is how it's ok to judge a person by their brains, but not by their appearance. Why are people who judge someone on their intelligence somehow better than people who judge them on their appearance? Aren't both 'intelligence' and 'appearance' merely 1 piece of the complex puzzle that makes a person a 'person' in the first place? What do either aspects say about how compassionate, empathetic, friendly and helpful they are?

Judging anyone on 1 aspect of their personality is shallow, but it's ok to be shallow if a shallow impression is all you get. The reason people get defensive when people are shallow about appearance is because it's of sexual nature and people generally are uncomfortable when it comes to sexuality.

To limit porn to being 'objectifying to women' is a double standard as was, as you sort of touched on in your post. It's objectifying of people. How often is there an interview with the male performer beforehand? How often do we see their faces?

People can be both sexual objects and rocket scientists... and caring.. and funny and easy going and empathetic.. different aspects of someone's personality are of importance under different circumstances. And when I watch porn, the thing I mostly care about is the sexual aspect of a woman's personality. When I'm listening to music by a woman, I mostly care about her as an artist.

I think that's a very insightful post, and of course I'm inclined to agree with you on a fair few accounts. I think the treating people as objects phenomenon punches a little bit deeper than looking at kinky pictures on the internet too, and I think the focus on intellectualism in our culture hides one of the root causes of that. The emphasis is not on these other aspects of a person, as you've rightly said. We tend to emphasise the intellectual's knowing objective facts over having practical knowledge or wisdom - and this has a lot of consequences for us. Seeing people as objects is not caused by sexuality, it's a possibile way in which we can modify our gaze - and we lay far too much emphasis on the kind of understanding which leads us to see people in these terms. We're kinda missing what's right in front of us, that which isn't known by objective observation first and foremost, but engaged in through lived participation.

badger wrote:

cosmic surgeon wrote:Also, mods - is it not possible to just delete troll posts so we can actually discuss things properly and learn from one another, rather than locking the entire thread? Maybe a couple of seven day bans wouldn't go amiss?

well quite...

there's different moderating styles at work to say the least. either way we're better off having a separate thread like this where there's a chance for intelligent discussion if you want to address the issues at hand, rather than having the same old WE WANT TITTIES threads

there's maybe 4-5 people out of about 40-50 regular posters who aren't capable of 'keeping it in their pants' so to speak when it comes to threads about girls

for every 1 person who might appear to lack respect for women theres fucking loads of us who are the opposite

its just elitist bullshit on behalf of mods who have been locking them threads

i actually cant believe Seckle locked that other thread, it REAKS of pompous indignation, what a fanny, LACE didn't even get a chance to tear into them

with regards intelligent discussion - the thread that got locked was being steered that way anyway!

some of these attitudes towards posters here are ridiculous

if you aren't allowed to post controversial or offensive views how do you ever weed out the bad idea's from the good?

why has THIS particular subject been deemed so offensive that the mods have to swoop in and save us from our own actions??

fuck. this.

cosmic surgeon wrote: Do you think it's fair that the affirmation of female sexuality seems to go hand in hand with a denial of male sexuality

Not at all, we are humans, we are sexual beings. Let's put our history as humanity in context. 2000 plus years of a patriarchal society, clearly we're not running the show. Because of this female sexuality has often been denied, and is mostly appreciated through a thin male perspective.

Let me explain my definition of objectification.

Objectification is when you only see one aspect or one purpose/use for a THING. I use the word 'thing' here, because I objectify an object, such as book is an object for reading, or a pretty coat i object to wear when it's cold.

Attraction is when you see the physical attributes of a PERSON and appreciate them. You may choose just to look, or you may choose to approach. When you find someone attractive you find their body/ face attractive. But you still see a person. You don't reduce their humanity to the extent that they become an object.

I cannot however, prevent other people from looking at us and thinking: "Hello tits" when they see us.

I love men, I'm attracted to them, fully fledged male members of the human race. The problem is, sometimes, men don't think of women as fully fledged member of the human race - and thats when attraction becomes objectification.

And there's more than one model of an attractive woman, sadly in popular culture there only seems to be one type of objectified woman.

Men have all sorts of idealized beauty out there, however they aren't expected to live up to them. I don't understand exactly why the impossible standard is expected from women and not men.

noam wrote:

badger wrote:

cosmic surgeon wrote:Also, mods - is it not possible to just delete troll posts so we can actually discuss things properly and learn from one another, rather than locking the entire thread? Maybe a couple of seven day bans wouldn't go amiss?

well quite...

there's different moderating styles at work to say the least. either way we're better off having a separate thread like this where there's a chance for intelligent discussion if you want to address the issues at hand, rather than having the same old WE WANT TITTIES threads

there's maybe 4-5 people out of about 40-50 regular posters who aren't capable of 'keeping it in their pants' so to speak when it comes to threads about girls

for every 1 person who might appear to lack respect for women theres fucking loads of us who are the opposite

its just elitist bullshit on behalf of mods who have been locking them threads

i actually cant believe Seckle locked that other thread, it REAKS of pompous indignation, what a fanny, LACE didn't even get a chance to tear into them

with regards intelligent discussion - the thread that got locked was being steered that way anyway!

some of these attitudes towards posters here are ridiculous

if you aren't allowed to post controversial or offensive views how do you ever weed out the bad idea's from the good?

why has THIS particular subject been deemed so offensive that the mods have to swoop in and save us from our own actions??

fuck. this.

agree with the fuck this part...

it's ironic that it got locked at the point that intelligent discussion was actually taking place but i'm sure the reason it was locked was to stop the same whinging about the tits and ass threads. i can't believe i'm having to explain this again but that rule is not just there to protect posters from seeing tits

the vast majority of threads that get locked are because noone wants to see the same circular arguments again and again and again. do we really need to have the same discussion about those threads every week? that rule isn't going to change so just drop it ffs

and once again a decent discussions been derailed

LACE wrote:

cosmic surgeon wrote: Do you think it's fair that the affirmation of female sexuality seems to go hand in hand with a denial of male sexuality

Not at all, we are humans, we are sexual beings. Let's put our history as humanity in context. 2000 plus years of a patriarchal society, clearly we're not running the show. Because of this female sexuality has often been denied, and is mostly appreciated through a thin male perspective.

Let me explain my definition of objectification.

Objectification is when you only see one aspect or one purpose/use for a THING. I use the word 'thing' here, because I objectify an object, such as book is an object for reading, or a pretty coat i object to wear when it's cold.

Attraction is when you see the physical attributes of a PERSON and appreciate them. You may choose just to look, or you may choose to approach. When you find someone attractive you find their body/ face attractive. But you still see a person. You don't reduce their humanity to the extent that they become an object.

I cannot however, prevent other people from looking at us and thinking: "Hello tits" when they see us.

I love men, I'm attracted to them, fully fledged male members of the human race. The problem is, sometimes, men don't think of women as fully fledged member of the human race - and thats when attraction becomes objectification.

And there's more than one model of an attractive woman, sadly in popular culture there only seems to be one type of objectified woman.

Men have all sorts of idealized beauty out there, however they aren't expected to live up to them. I don't understand exactly why the impossible standard is expected from women and not men.

YAWN!!!

Now is your chance to 'tear into us'... go go go!

You only make yourself look like an idiot.

There is a thread titled 'FUCKING BITCH' I find that offensive as it implies that the woman is a female dog, which quite frankly is insulting to dogs. That thread must get locked for the sake of menstrual women everywhere.