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While working on a few mixes of my own, I have having the hardest time distinguishing between what a good and bad mix is suppose to sound like...

Taking a few examples....
1. Excision X volumes mix - I think extremely clean and crisp with good flow (I dont hear key clashes and any abrupt transitions) what are other people's opinions?
2. Circus one (Flux Pavillion/Dr.P) - Again, crisp mix, but more blend based. Most transitions I believe are blends from song A to B. Not the most interesting mix... However, it keeps good flow.
3.Super Stereo Bros. http://soundcloud.com/thessbros/bounce- ... set-super/ Compared to the top two, I dont think its as good because it lacks the flawless flow of the top 2. Some songs come in out of key or are dissonant (lets say going from a C to a D flat), BUT its more interesting in the way that its glitchy.

Do people agree? I'm trying to make a list of dubstep mixing techniques and I'm starting to get very confused as to whats good and whats not.

If anyone has a superb mix theyd like to share, please do. I need to hear what a "good" mix should sound like.

i think that the question is a 'lil vague, which could help debate and/or hinder it, depending on what answer you're looking for.

IMO, those mixes are pretty awful, half b/c i think that the mixing is really linear and half b/c i think that the music is really, really terrible. But that's not really helpful to the question you're asking I guess.

I think that what makes a good mix "good" is a combination of: selection of tune, sequencing of tune, interesting cut-up techniques, that third-space (i.e. the blend), and originality (which is a pretty broad category that probably encompasses all the previously mentioned aspects). The tunes should be unique to the DJ or played in such a way that they inhabit a unique context, i.e. I like hearing new tunes, which don't even necessarily need to be new, just fresh to my ears. The technical aspect I think is marked by the same features, the DJ shouldn't just be crossfading over from tune to tune. I like when things cut in and out, crash inwards, get wheeled up, reversed, powered down, etc. In that case, it may not even be helpful to make a list of "dubstep" mixing techniques, but rather, mixing techniques IN GENERAL. This is where I think things can get interesting, when you look to other "genres" of music for inspiration. So don't feel obligated to listen to specifically dubstep mixes. Check out hip-hop shit, house mixes, DMC videos, that Jeff Mills video (forgot the name), etc.

That said, it's all really contextual. Podcast-y mixes are real different from playing out, and parties differ, etc.. Sometimes cutting from tune to tune works, if the party dictates that direction.

I'll try to post some other mixes that really inspired me technically and selection-wise when I find them. For now, if you'll oblige me, you can check out my "shrine" page dedicated to some djs that i really think are pushing the DJ game forward right now. there's a bunch of media there: http://dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=200739

Old Hatcha, Youngsta, and Kode9 mixes are always really good too. I'll try to see if I can find some links from elsewhere on the forum.

i forgot to mention that you're gonna have to take into account the difference in playback systems.

TTs, serato, cdjs, ableton, etc. all have their idiosyncracies (as well as baggage).

Thanks Tosker for the great reply. I needed to hear this from another person because I thought I was losing my mind. I do agree with you that mixes #1 and 2, and parts of 3 all are very LINEAR (a great way to describe the mixing techniques). My questions is though, can these people, in the context of excision and flux/dr.p, get away with linear mixes because they are producers, thus not needing to produce a superbly technical DJ mix?

Also, from your comments, I presume you're not a fan of the newer dubstep direction (the heavy grimey robot sex esque sounds) but I appreciate your objective response.

I guess I need to listen to more mixes, and broaden my transition horizons because currently i have hit a DJing plateau and its bothering the hell out of me. Its surprising how many people get away from just crossfading... Ill check out the link you gave me, but also, I would really appreciate a somewhere/someone I can seek to learn better mixing techniques...

-Lorpos

lorposralem wrote:Thanks Tosker for the great reply. I needed to hear this from another person because I thought I was losing my mind. I do agree with you that mixes #1 and 2, and parts of 3 all are very LINEAR (a great way to describe the mixing techniques). My questions is though, can these people, in the context of excision and flux/dr.p, get away with linear mixes because they are producers, thus not needing to produce a superbly technical DJ mix?

This is a pretty hard question to answer, only because IMO they don´t get away with it. But there´s definitely a demographic that would disagree with me. It´s sort of a question of why people are drawn to certain music in the first place, you´ll get a whole lot of different answers.
If you´re asking why people would book them and not more technically skilled/interesting DJs, then you´re probably right. There´s a certain scarcity value that comes from having your own tunes to play out (that no one else, presumably, has), and I think that also ties into this idea of seeing an artist play live/in concert. People want to see Skrillex or Datsik b/c they´re the one´s who produced the music, and people come to hear the tunes that they made. That´s probably a simplified analysis of the current situation, though.

If you feel like you´ve hit a plateau, you probably need to play out or find some mates to spin with. There´s always something new that you can learn. Can I ask how long you´ve been DJing and what medium you´re using? Have you had the opportunity to play out? Seeing whether people like what you do can clue you into how well you´re faring.

Lastly, for inspiration, I´d check out Hatcha, Youngsta, Kode9 (as previously mentioned), as well as: Oneman, Ben UFO, Bok Bok, Brackles, Jackmaster. Those are the guys I can think of off the top of my head. What I like about these DJs specifically is their ability to take two tunes you know (or, more frequently, will know in a couple of months when they´re actually released) and create a whole new tune in a blend. Swapping basslines, cutting frequencies, these guys work wonders with the EQs.

I´ll try to upload the Kode9 Babel mix sometime tomorrow, maybe, to give you an idea of what I´m referencing. Keep in mind, if the style you´re going after is the nu'skool stuff then you might need to adapt it to your liking.

Mate listen to the Cyrus mixes on Getdarker, you'll get what it's about. He has his own style, he builds up the pressure and puts more and more bassweight as he gets in and when it's at the peak he just brings it back to make it come up again, it's almost magic.

Same for Oneman, his openings are always truly creative, he played 1 thing by Amerie in his last boilerroom set how sick is that ??

Excision is not a bad DJ, tbh he's tight but the least you can say is that there's no diversity at all in his mix. I went to see him once and after 20 minutes I had to go out for a smoke to give my ears a rest... That kind of things just shouldn't happen

The music the op listens too is actually quite alot harder to mix then most dubstep. The breaks tend to still shout out crazy when mixing it with almost any part of other tunes. Iv'e noticed when i started switching from mixing with productions from, let's say, Excision, Datsik, Bar 9, to producers like Sukh Knight, and Distance, my mixing style changed up tremendously.

When mixing for bros you need to change up the tunes extreamly quickly. Best to make the track switch in a measure or two during the breaks. No more, becuase as soon as the killer robots make an appearance, you're stuck.

When you're mixing dubstep, with a proper fx unit on you're mixer you can introduce the new tune at any time. Filters + reverb have become my greatest friend. And the differance between mixing these two genres is how they revolve around differant things, Mid bass and sub.

A sub is alot easier to single out from a drum or vocal track than mid-bass. And when you're mixing, you should slowly build each track into each other. Like throwing a drum loop from A in, then mix in some mid range, and use the sub from B. Then when B fades out, turn up the low.

EDIT:
Didn't really awnser your question. A good mix should have good levels, remain in a somewhat related key, and it should be unpredictable. Drum's shouldn't clash, there should be one sub layer/vox playing, not sub from both tracks, and you should change up the style slowly. I love it when a mix starts out relaxed and really chill, then slowly builds, peaks, and then slows out at the end.

@tosker: Now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to go see, say Datsik, for his music rather than his mixes. Clearly, they get away with it because I recently saw Skrillex live, and he cannot mix for his life, but either the people dont care or they dont mind it. Anyway, I've been DJing for almost a year, and currently im using VDJ (by choice, I prefer it over serato/traktor, and if there are some blantant things im missing out here, let me know) with a MIDI NS7 controller. I'm trying to transition into DJing with Ableton, but it isnt so intuitive for me yet. Another big thing is I rarely get a chance to play dubstep at gigs (I get gigs on a weekly basis but its either at clubs/bars in boston, where dubstep, of any kind, is pretty much forbidden) and I am forced to mix top 40s, hip hop and mostly junk. People seem to like what I'm doing, but I personally have a HUGE problem with a very similar transitioning method every single time, even if the audience doesnt care/notice. Either way, Ill give Kode9 a listen today.
Thanks for the reply.

@Ronin: Ill keep an eye out for Cyrus as well. As far as Excision goes, I dont blame him. It seems like a lot of the people that go to shows just want to come out deaf. Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Bassnectar and his shows? Ive been to a couple, and he keeps things interesting despite his notoriety for heavy bass.

@Redderious: This is true. I suppose the harder dubstep songs (Excision, Datsik, etc) do have way more going on for precise EQing fade transitions, but if I follow the quick and dirty method, I feel that the transitions are very choppy and abrupt. I personally prefer overdrawn and longwinded transitions of subtle changes from A to B, but this is almost impossible with newer dubstep I guess. Also, I dont have any FX on my controller and I am trying to figure out how to route my Ableon DJing template in order for me to perform FX live.


I have a question for everyone: Opinions on Nero's BBC Essential Mix?
- Nero's taste in dubstep seems to be in a strange mix of pop-esque with hard dubstep
- Almost all of his transitions are taking the vocals from song B and mixing it with song A, but they seem to work very nicely, in almost a musical way
- Taking aside from his song choices, (loved the bit with Mendelssohn) can you guys critique his mixing style?

lorposralem wrote:@tosker: Now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to go see, say Datsik, for his music rather than his mixes. Clearly, they get away with it because I recently saw Skrillex live, and he cannot mix for his life, but either the people dont care or they dont mind it.

@Ronin: Ill keep an eye out for Cyrus as well. As far as Excision goes, I dont blame him. It seems like a lot of the people that go to shows just want to come out deaf. Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Bassnectar and his shows? Ive been to a couple, and he keeps things interesting despite his notoriety for heavy bass.

@Redderious: This is true. I suppose the harder dubstep songs (Excision, Datsik, etc) do have way more going on for precise EQing fade transitions, but if I follow the quick and dirty method, I feel that the transitions are very choppy and abrupt. I personally prefer overdrawn and longwinded transitions of subtle changes from A to B, but this is almost impossible with newer dubstep I guess. Also, I dont have any FX on my controller and I am trying to figure out how to route my Ableon DJing template in order for me to perform FX live.

I've seen skrillex live, he can't perform. Not one bit, you might of seen him go crowd surfing in the middle of his set? Well, that's because he doesn't actually mix...he just pushes play. And for some reason people really seem to like it..I just don't get it. It's probably because almost every single person who sees him are just retarded, hipster cigarettes, who think they are hardcore dubstep lovers. Honestly, his music almost all the time just sounds like the audio off what a robot porno. People don't mind him fucking up becuase they don't notice it...because they don't know anything about electronic music. And i mean, ANYTHING.

Bassnectar is a beast, or atleast he was before he became so well known. The Cozza Frenzy tour was when he was at his greatest. Then Timestretch came along, and that was...decent, i suppose. Then Wildstyle......yeahhhhh. My theory on this is he's so caught up in becoming conscious and touring around everywhere, that he has no time in the studio. It really shows too, Wildstyle was pretty shitty.

Mixing isn't just about you, and you're skills on turntables. It's about the tracklist as well. You should'nt just be showcasing you're skills at you're level, you should be showcasing the music that you're playing. Play the latest and greatest, make sure people actually get a chance to listen to the song before you drop in a new one. It's really hard to get down to the dj if his tunes are changing up every 30 seconds....imo. And that makes you more prone to making mistakes and fucking you're mix all up.

don't try and plan your mix. Just hop on the decks and do it, figure out what works and what doesn't, it'll just happen.

DRTY wrote:don't try and plan your mix. Just hop on the decks and do it, figure out what works and what doesn't, it'll just happen.

Just to specify a little more, don't plan you're tracklist. It always helps to look at the waveform, see when the tracks change up and drop it in.-------edit imo

Here's the Kode9 mix. It used to be hosted on Barefiles, which was a dubstep mix database that seems to now be defunct. Big up deapoh, obviously!

http://www.mediafire.com/?avuk1786h56a473

Tracklist:

Intro 9
Virgo - Monster (white)
Digital Mystikz - Neverland (dub)
Mark One - Tomb Raider (dub)
Macabre Unit - Death by Stereo rmx (dub)
Skream - Indian Dub rmx (dub)
Plasticman & S-Man - Section 7 (dub)
Burial - South London Burroughs (dub)
D-1 - Enigma rmx (dub)
Digital Mystikz - ? (dub)
Digital Mystikz - Conference (dub)
Loefah - Monsoon rmx (dub)
Random Trio - Rampage (dub)
Digital Mystikz - Officer (dub)
Terror Danjah - Gunshot rmx (Aftershock)
Wiley - Nu Era dub (white)
Mark One - Lost Gold (dub)

original writeup by gutterbreakz
http://gutterbreakz.blogspot.com/2005/0 ... -flex.html

lorposralem wrote:...Anyway, I've been DJing for almost a year, and currently im using VDJ (by choice, I prefer it over serato/traktor, and if there are some blantant things im missing out here, let me know) with a MIDI NS7 controller. I'm trying to transition into DJing with Ableton, but it isnt so intuitive for me yet. Another big thing is I rarely get a chance to play dubstep at gigs (I get gigs on a weekly basis but its either at clubs/bars in boston, where dubstep, of any kind, is pretty much forbidden) and I am forced to mix top 40s, hip hop and mostly junk. People seem to like what I'm doing, but I personally have a HUGE problem with a very similar transitioning method every single time, even if the audience doesnt care/notice...

Yeah, (sigh), I think that's the case in most places. Opportunities to play out the lesser known stuff are few and far between in comparison with DJing opportunities where you might as well not even be there. I'm really kinda surprised that top40 DJs still exist. I would think that clubs would be financially better off without them, but maybe it's just a formality, i.e. a fetishized object that just serves a visual purpose, not necessarily a utilitarian purpose. Nonetheless, big up yourself for doing it, cuz peeps gotta make bread. TBH, even if you really have that much of a problem with it, just let it go. Sometimes you're just there to supply the music that the crowd wants, and if they're drunk and into pop-stuff, then they won't give a shit about "technical ability or innovation". IMO, just take the money and run.

I'm pretty sure that there are some people in Boston doing dubstep stuff tho, there should be a monthly thing called Bassic if I can remember correctly. If you wanna get involved with dubstep stuff, that may be an avenue worth checking out.
Alternatively, and this would give you more independence to do what you want, set up your own gig. Boston's a college-y town right? Find a friend with a PA and set up a lil basement party or something. I think that DIY-efforts are really the only way that you can have autonomy, unless your blessed with being located around some cultural mecca like NYC or something. Obviously, this is an invested idea and not always the most accessible, but if you have a really strong and unique vision, that may be the only way to get across whatever it is you want to get across.

Also, as regards VDJ and ableton. When I first got into electronic music, I thought, "Sweet! I can do all these things with Ableton, and I already have all these digital tracks because buying them is cheaper than buying $11 or $12 vinyl plates with 2 tunes on em (not to mention, I didn't have decks at that point)!" When I tried to set up a DJ template in Ableton, however, what I realized was that I was really just trying to emulate a 2 deck + mixer setup. Additionally, alot of great dubstep releases (like the Deep Medi stuff, prior to the comps) was vinyl only, so I had started to buy these tunes just to listen to them on my mom's old automatic TT. At that point, it made more sense to just learn how to mix on decks and buy vinyl, cuz it killed two birds with one stone. I could hear the music that I could only get on vinyl, as well as have a medium for DJing.
In short, I think that you should get an idea of how you wanna DJ. Since the idea of a DJ is sorta "burdened" (maybe not the correct word) by the historical image of 2 turntables and a mixer, I think that the way people conceptualize their DJing practice is conditioned by what you can and can't do with vinyl. For instance, you can do some really great looping things with CDJs, as well as hot-cuing, that don't really translate over to vinyl. However, scratch techniques are superior IMO on vinyl. SSL/Traktor sorta complicates this, but in general I think that each medium has it's own benefits/disadvantages. If you're gonna stick with VDJ or move to Ableton, and wanna do something innovative (which seems like your objective, correct me if I'm wrong), then you better come with some crazy ideas, cuz otherwise, you're better off using something else (and obv. money is gonna come into play here).
Also, as was said previously, the music that you're playing is also gonna affect your practice, so take that into account. I didn't think about it before, but that makes the LA-brainfeeder preference for Ableton alot more sensical.

If they're telling you what you MUST play then screw them. A DJs job is to play good music and educate people if necessary imho

@ Tosker: Thanks for the lengthy and honest replies. Its good to get some guidance as well as your perspectives on this as I work with a small company that share a very different vision. Its basically run by this guy who made it big enough in boston to get a pretty nice stream of gigs in well known clubs by playing mostly top 40s. I really do not like the musical direction the company is going towards (crooklyn clan, dj resources... junk like that) but it seems like there is a huge demand for shitty music playing through great club systems. But as you said, it pays money, and im trying to save money in order to create something more creative for myself. Also its good practice to play infront of a crowd, and occasionally, i slip in a few quality tunes.

In terms of dubstep in boston. I have never heard of Bassic, but i will check it out! There are a few venues that play exclusively dubstep, but they are on weeknights and are often closed off to other DJs, as the residents pull in their list of connections. Still, ive been trying to get into that rotation.

On my set up. I didnt know what I really wanted to do until you said it. Clearly, i'm not going to stick with the archetypal mixer two table set up for a number of reasons, and an innovative set up is ideally what I want. I'm not going to say that im going to be the next deadmau5 who did come up with a very creative way to "dj" but well see if I can figure something out. There are a lot of creative artists out there utilizing all the tools that are around.

Also what did you mean by "I didn't think about it before, but that makes the LA-brainfeeder preference for Ableton alot more sensical."

@Drty/Redderious:
I have noticed that most of my mixes are better when im drunk and playing it live. It may be because that I am drunk and i dont hear all the mistakes I make or that I am confident and dont let the little things get to me. Either way, a mix on the fly has usually been much more creative. However, I construct most of my mixes by key, as I personally think that a dissonant mix (going from song in C major to a F minor) is really abrupt.

Also, in my many attempts to "show" the audience what I believed was better music that the shit oozing out of the radio has resulted in a lot of awkward looks, people leaving, and the club/bar staff yelling at me to play some rihanna or some shit. Life is tough.

@ everyone: I'ma give kode9 a listen. I really appreciate the extended help youve all been giving me.

edit:

@Redderious: Didnt see one of your posts.
When you talk about bassnectar, can you give some examples? I'm a huge fan and I guess im a little embarrassed to say I thought wildstyle EP (at least 808, wilstyle method and Yes (although not in the EP i think) were all really good...) Even compared to some of his older stuff, I cant really tell why the newer is inferior. Id like to talk about it so I can identify things that you hear that I dont.

Also, after the skrillex show, im very disappointed at the millions of zombie listeners who just worship him as the second coming of Christ. Ever since his newer stuff started coming out, all his drops sound the same (the glitchy, ADD drops with distorted Yoys get really old after the first three times) but i guess the problem with the "nu" dubstep crowd is that they consistently chase the heavier drops, which at this point all sound like an nuclear explosion.

lorposralem wrote:edit:

@Redderious: Didnt see one of your posts.
When you talk about bassnectar, can you give some examples? I'm a huge fan and I guess im a little embarrassed to say I thought wildstyle EP (at least 808, wilstyle method and Yes (although not in the EP i think) were all really good...) Even compared to some of his older stuff, I cant really tell why the newer is inferior. Id like to talk about it so I can identify things that you hear that I dont.

Also, after the skrillex show, im very disappointed at the millions of zombie listeners who just worship him as the second coming of Christ. Ever since his newer stuff started coming out, all his drops sound the same (the glitchy, ADD drops with distorted Yoys get really old after the first three times) but i guess the problem with the "nu" dubstep crowd is that they consistently chase the heavier drops, which at this point all sound like an nuclear explosion.

You mean you can't just smell the 'mainstream' in wildstyle? Remember 3 or 4 years ago when he wasn't too known, he made more than dubstep. Now he's lost that variety and that experimental vibe he had going on. Fun with Sythesisers? 808? Hot Right Now? these songs suck. Wildstyle and Falling were okay, but everything else has my disapointed. Shouldn't a producer on his level be a little more creative you think?

lorposralem wrote:Also what did you mean by "I didn't think about it before, but that makes the LA-brainfeeder preference for Ableton alot more sensical."

this was in reference to:

Redderious wrote:The music the op listens too is actually quite alot harder to mix then most dubstep. The breaks tend to still shout out crazy when mixing it with almost any part of other tunes. Iv'e noticed when i started switching from mixing with productions from, let's say, Excision, Datsik, Bar 9, to producers like Sukh Knight, and Distance, my mixing style changed up tremendously.

I was trying to make some sort of correlation between the music that these people produce, and subsequently are asked to perform when they play live, along with their preferred performance medium. Stylistically, I see more reason for the Brainfeeder/LA beat-sters (is there a name that people readily use for these peeps?) to adopt an Ableton platform, where they can trigger clips or loops and glitch 'em up. At least that's the impression I've gotten from some FlyLo vids I've seen. It wasn't a super important comment, but I felt like I had made sense of what I perceived to be common phenomena.

Best of luck in your endeavors, I felt like I've been in the same boat before, so I figured my comments would at least be halfway relevant. It's a long, hard road, from what I've gathered, to get to a point where people will trust your taste enough to follow you where you'd like to lead them. I would like to stress that IMO you're in a pretty good position. Even though you probably feel like you are subject to the whims of the pop radio chart, I think that you have an opportunity to step up to a pretty interesting challenge: How to frame or introduce a music outside the listener's frame of reference. IE How can I get people to listen to dubstep when they think that they're only into Top40 stuff? It might change your perspective on DJing.

I think that this separates the "live performer" from the "DJ". IMO, there is a greater burden on the latter to adapt to the context of the situation, rather than play a strict and orthodox setlist (obv. simplification at work here).

I'll just share a quick story to elaborate on what I mean: I'm sorta lucky to have had any performance experience at all, since for the most part, I lack the social and business street-smarts to get out there with my craft. A buddy from school, who owns 2 medium sized PA speakers, asked me to split DJ-duty one night at a house party that his neighbors were putting on (we go to school in a college-y town, so that either means house parties, or dance clubs with shitty systems and a strict Top40 policy; opportunities are realll DIY). I was into alot of Deep Medi stuff, and just coming off of the 'aggy dubstep kick, and immediately noticed that peeps were really only into the Dutch House that my buddy had played just before I went on. When I started spinning, at least half the crowd ditched the dancefloor (in reality, a living room), and 2 songs into my "set" I was playing the tunes I loved at the time to an audience of maybe 5 people. This has been a continual learning process for me, figuring out how to play the stuff I'd really like to indulge in, while making it accessible to the audience. Subsequently, I've actually found that I enjoy alot of the hip-hop I hear on rap radio, especially the really tuff 808-stuff, and have also started exploring the history of house music. It was necessary for me to look into other avenues so that I could at least approach a crossroads where I could play some dubstep in a set.

In short, take whatever opportunities you can and build off them.