Dubstepforum.com

Can some kind and knowledgeable people please help me out?

My tracks sound good to me while I'm working, nice balance, happy with the dynamics and where the elements sit etc...

But when I come to compare them to any released music, they sound pretty quiet, even if I apply a bit of limiting and the levels are kicking up to 0db-ish.

Why is this? What can I do to improve the presence and volume through my mixdowns?

I've looked through this thread which is very interesting, but a lot of it goes over my head

Perceived loudness level and clipping level are very different.

I bounce down a track to 24bit 44.1k then I load a new Logic file with my mastering plugins in, and work the magic to get it to 'commercial' volume levels.

You need EQ, Compresion (maybe multiband), then limiting, in that order.

There are books on mastering or check out here,

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct05/a ... stered.htm

Also. read the correct about the correct way to use an EQ. Create a narrow band, boost 24db, then move the freq up or down, find potential problem freqs and then you can reduce them, lightly. This EQ technique may work better on individual tracks though. When mastering you generally want subtle boosts or cuts.

Often I find I need to boost 10Khz and above by about 3db with a high shelf EQ.

You're going to ned more than the Dubstep forum though for guidance if you really want to learn mastering,

Thanks mate!

But do you think its all to do with mastering rather than the original mix? Can the mix itself not affect the volume its possible to achieve?

True it's hard to say without hearing.

the question is what you consider to be loud enough....

alot of pro people manage to squeeze their tunes up to about -9db RMS ( i think Loefah - system and mud are about that on the bleep mp3s - and incidentally thats about the level which R.Demon of macabre unit masters to). WHICH IS OBSCENELY LOUD. I find mine generally go between -15/-11db RMS before i start having to go crazy with limiting, comrpession, eq etc.... around -12RMS should be more than loud enough tho it depends entirely on the tune itself. Making it louder means squishing stuff. And for that to sound good you have to know what youre doing.

Put your mixdowns in soundforge and click the Statistics option ( i think its in the Tools menu) to find out what RMS level your track is at.

getting rid of unnecessary freqs e.g taking all the bass off samples that dont need it, maing sure youre kickdrum doesnt interfere with your bassline etc is a good starting point.

Nice one bro, thanks for the advice. What's RMS though?

Loud enough for me is just however much needed not to sound too weak in a mix, I don't need it to sound like Loefah!

Is it fair to say that theres a correlation between how busy a track is and how much volume you can get out?

But then a lot of dnb is really busy and it can sound huge

But I like the sounds being full, I dont want really thin kicks and I like the bass in my toms and mid in my hi's, it keeps it sounding a bit dirty. But I want it to sound big. Is it possible to have both?

hmm you got me there. its basically a different measurement of sound energy/volume as far as i understand it.

for example, you could have a section in Loefah's system which peaks at -3db and a part in your tune which also peaks at -3db but yours will sound much quieter. thats because they're not both the same RMS volume.

have a read on wikipedia. my understadning is incredibly basic at best.

and remember, good mixdowns are an artform. the only way to learn is to listen, read, practice, listen and listen again. dont be disheartened if it seems hard. it is.

Trevelyan wrote: Is it fair to say that theres a correlation between how busy a track is and how much volume you can get out?

To an extent. If you have lots of things going on, then there will be lots of parts where frequencies overlap. When similar frequencies overlap you get higher peaks, and this can cause clipping. Therefore it kind of makes sense that if you only have one bass part, one high/mid synth and drums going at the same time, each part can probably be made to sound louder without clipping than some multi instrumental madness!

If you're clever/obsessive with the eqing, you should be able to sort out some of these overlaps without making too much difference to the apparent loudness of each part of a tune. I'm quite shit at it though, so someone else might be a better source on this!

Trevelyan wrote: But then a lot of dnb is really busy and it can sound huge

A lot of DnB is compressed to fuck, sometimes quite unpleasantly so. I find that stuff like Pendulum and Sub Focus really jars my ears because of this. Also, to be fair, a lot of the DnB mainstays are really good at the technical side of sound engineering!

Batfink wrote:hmm you got me there. its basically a different measurement of sound energy/volume as far as i understand it.

for example, you could have a section in Loefah's system which peaks at -3db and a part in your tune which also peaks at -3db but yours will sound much quieter. thats because they're not both the same RMS volume.

RMS = Root Mean Square

Its basically the average magnitude of a changing quantity, in this case a soundwave.

You may have the same peak values as Loefah, but his tunes have a higher average magnitude, "loudness", whatever! I suppose this just means that he is pushing closer to the peak level most of the time.

gravious wrote:

Trevelyan wrote: Is it fair to say that theres a correlation between how busy a track is and how much volume you can get out?

To an extent. If you have lots of things going on, then there will be lots of parts where frequencies overlap. When similar frequencies overlap you get higher peaks, and this can cause clipping. Therefore it kind of makes sense that if you only have one bass part, one high/mid synth and drums going at the same time, each part can probably be made to sound louder without clipping than some multi instrumental madness!

If you're clever/obsessive with the eqing, you should be able to sort out some of these overlaps without making too much difference to the apparent loudness of each part of a tune. I'm quite shit at it though, so someone else might be a better source on this!

Thanks for your time bro. That has helped clarify things in my mind. Its kind of annoying news, but i guess thats just how it goes!

So its about identifying which frequencies are causing peaks, and removing unnecessary signal from them? How can the frequencies be identified? I use Reason and Sound Forge

well you have a set amount of headroom in a digital signal. once you get to 0db thats it, youve hit the ceiling. but my understanding is that by carefully balancing the frequencies in a tune you can use that headroom more efficiently and thus get more volume.

to take a toally random example, you might have peaks at 70hz (bassline overlapping with the kickdrum), 300hz(snare overlapping with your midbass), 900hz (hihat clashing with the top end of your snare sample) and 1khz (a vocal sample clashing with your synths). If you strip those clashing freqs out, it might allow you to raise the overall volume of a track by a few decibels.

i think jtransition is the man for this kind of question tho, as my understanding is far from scientific...

Yeh i see

What tools can be used to identify the peaks? Can it be done on Sound Forge?

Trevelyan wrote:Yeh i see

What tools can be used to identify the peaks? Can it be done on Sound Forge?

not really. Your ears, a little knowledge and a good EQ plugin are your best friends.

Batfink wrote:

Trevelyan wrote:Yeh i see

What tools can be used to identify the peaks? Can it be done on Sound Forge?

not really. Your ears, a little knowledge and a good EQ plugin are your best friends.

Thanks for all the advice man

If you put a little bit of compression on all tracks, just to limit the peaks, you can increase the overall mix level too.

It sounds like a lot of compression, but I'm talking about small ratios. Just enough to eek out a few more decibels.

in my opinion mastering is best left to the professionals...it truly is an art form.

if your playing your own stuff out, a bit of EQ, compression and limiting without squashing it too much should be fine....you can boost the volume on the mixer....

if your getting it released or summat, get it done by a professional studio...
as far as i know it aint that much, i saw one advert for £20 a track but obviously quality varies.

start thinking about the mixdown the minute you start selecting sounds and writing parts; if you've got a massive, beefy kick let that take up a lot of the subbass room, etc.

mix to -6 on the scale, etc, for peaks, and do your best to keep your mix balanced, level-wize. not a ton of jagged peaks, etc- unless, of course, that's what you're going for.

From there it's all about small amounts of compression, eq, and limiting to get your mixdown to a 'mastered' stage. ever sat in on a mastering session? they spend at most 1hr per tune, and that's if the song needs a LOT of work. takes ears, yeah, but provided your mixdown is well-built, controlled where it needs to be controlled, and not overloaded with sub that you don't need... you'll be solid.

Trevelyan wrote:

gravious wrote:

Trevelyan wrote: Is it fair to say that theres a correlation between how busy a track is and how much volume you can get out?

To an extent. If you have lots of things going on, then there will be lots of parts where frequencies overlap. When similar frequencies overlap you get higher peaks, and this can cause clipping. Therefore it kind of makes sense that if you only have one bass part, one high/mid synth and drums going at the same time, each part can probably be made to sound louder without clipping than some multi instrumental madness!

If you're clever/obsessive with the eqing, you should be able to sort out some of these overlaps without making too much difference to the apparent loudness of each part of a tune. I'm quite shit at it though, so someone else might be a better source on this!

Thanks for your time bro. That has helped clarify things in my mind. Its kind of annoying news, but i guess thats just how it goes!

So its about identifying which frequencies are causing peaks, and removing unnecessary signal from them? How can the frequencies be identified? I use Reason and Sound Forge

I use my ears mostly now, but I did develop an excel spreadsheet that will tell you this. If you have somethig like wavelab that can bounce out raw frequency response data in a text file, or a plugin like PAZ analyzer, bump all your channels into the spreadsheet, cou can get an idea where the nasty peaks are and what frequencies in what channels need cutting. You should aim to be able to use your ears but for learning, or someone who is not very familiar with their monitorsing situation, its a good place to start to get your head around what's happening and what it sounds like.

Some helpful words here, thank you all for contributing.

It's reassuring that it doesn't seem to be such a big deal as I had worried, just a matter of continuing the progression I've been on the whole time. I think my ears are relatively well tuned, or at least they're getting there, but I think I need to invest in some good monitors to draw out the really fine detail and avoid misrepresentation of the frequency spectrum.

It's fucking annoying that Reason doesn't have a db level monitor isn't it

Thanks again everyone!

One other thing...

So say I like my kicks to sound thick, and bassy. But I also want fat sub. Obviously a way to deal with it is not to use kicks over sub, but thats pretty restrictive.

Is there a way to run it so that the kicks are full when alone, but that when the sub hits some of the bass gets taken out of the kicks? I imagine its some sort of compression? But I don't know how to make it so the bass is dominant (ie takes priority), and so that it has regard for eq rather than just volume... Is it even possible in Reason?

Also it would have to be subtle I guess to keep the energy