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I got a small question about structure, whilest i'm producing, i'm trying to keep the structure of my tune somehow in mind, because when you are playing music, you always need to count, to follow the riddim. But by doing this my music seems a bit to repetitive, not repetitive in a way that you are listening to the same sound over and over again but repetitive in a way that when I loop 4 bars of intro and 8 bars of main course in my DAW its like the same thing over and over again without pausing when the (rather big) loop restarts, is this normal?

make small changes to each loop, using such things as automating velocity, moving some of the notes around tiny amounts, panning and automating filters to keep elements interesting past a few repeats

copy and paste that loop 30 times then deactivate certain parts to give it movement. If your in Live, you should start loops in session view then copy them to arrangment view and copy that loop and delete sctions where your breaks and drops are.. then you have a sense of phrasing that you can riff leads to.

What you got is called loopitus.

This is my recent thoughts on structure:

The sections are there to serve a purpose, the purposes are:
* to be remembered (Hook, main section, verse, etc)
* To dance to (drop)
* To anticipate the bit you dance to (build)
* Break from dancing (break)
* to mix in/out (intro/coda)
* To begin and end a set (intro/coda)

In conventional terms, you get a structure like this:

Intro
Main
break
build
drop
Main
break
build
drop
Main
Coda

Does that help?

jonahmann wrote:What you got is called loopitus.

This is my recent thoughts on structure:

The sections are there to serve a purpose, the purposes are:
* to be remembered (Hook, main section, verse, etc)
* To dance to (drop)
* To anticipate the bit you dance to (build)
* Break from dancing (break)
* to mix in/out (intro/coda)
* To begin and end a set (intro/coda)

In conventional terms, you get a structure like this:

Intro
Main
break
build
drop
Main
break
build
drop
Main
Coda

Does that help?

Yes thank you very much for the information, those are indeed very good points to keep in mind whilest producing if you are planning to spin out your tracks. But it was wondering if it could be possible to keep the flow in the track, whilst changing the feeling of the track, say going from a solid dancable uplifting house beat to atmospheric ambient track with much sense of space and dimension back to the house beat, within the structure of the song.

Maybe stagger it by sections? In the renaissance days, they used terraced dynamics, like a staircase. Rather than straight crescendo, they'd have so many bars of piano, then mezzopiano, mezzoforte etc.

Different melodies... as simple as that. Electronic music is mired in the "I found a sort of cool little 3 note riff, so I will just loop that for all 6 minutes of my song except the breakdown" syndrome. Used to be choruses, verses, bridges, codas... which is not to say that you should aim for Beatles-ish time/key changes and the all that... but if your song sounds monotonous, then it probably is monotonous - just thematically speaking.

Deadpact wrote:
Yes thank you very much for the information, those are indeed very good points to keep in mind whilest producing if you are planning to spin out your tracks. But it was wondering if it could be possible to keep the flow in the track, whilst changing the feeling of the track, say going from a solid dancable uplifting house beat to atmospheric ambient track with much sense of space and dimension back to the house beat, within the structure of the song.

I pretty much did something like that here:

Soundcloud

I have the intro, build then electro drop, a breakdown and similar build to a completely different minimal drop, which blends to a final build and 2nd electro drop then switching to half-time for the outro.

So far it's polarised oppinions I think - some people like the middle "drop" into the minimal kick/pluck bit, some people don't - I like it, and it's staying in the track, although I did find it hard to work back up to the final drop.

Use elements currently in the track and create effects with them, creates a lot of forward movement and makes the transition a lot smoother.

If your going from a synth lead, at the end of a bar send the signal to a delay.

If your transitioning from one bass line to another try HP filtering towards the end of the bar into the next bar.

If your using vocals, and then going to a section without vocals try using a phrase during that section and add effects.. try using the phrase as a synth, or using a vocoder, delay, reverb, stutter, ect.

Reverse your snares/kicks, add reverb/filtering.

When you use elements in your track as the source audio for a new effect.. It will always work.

alphacat wrote:Different melodies... as simple as that. Electronic music is mired in the "I found a sort of cool little 3 note riff, so I will just loop that for all 6 minutes of my song except the breakdown" syndrome. Used to be choruses, verses, bridges, codas... which is not to say that you should aim for Beatles-ish time/key changes and the all that... but if your song sounds monotonous, then it probably is monotonous - just thematically speaking.

Yeah mate thats what i mean, really giving the track a different feel, without changing the whole track. Would it be wise to finish a tune but leave maybe 4 or 8 bars of breakdown blank. When the tune is finished, empty the project and use the same sounds, automating tempo or such within the 4 or 8 blank bars, loads of effects (like the guy said the post above), some atmospheric elements. Then render the whole back intro the song? Or would this really sound redicilous?

I know this might be quite a strange question haha

Deadpact wrote:

alphacat wrote:Different melodies... as simple as that. Electronic music is mired in the "I found a sort of cool little 3 note riff, so I will just loop that for all 6 minutes of my song except the breakdown" syndrome. Used to be choruses, verses, bridges, codas... which is not to say that you should aim for Beatles-ish time/key changes and the all that... but if your song sounds monotonous, then it probably is monotonous - just thematically speaking.

Yeah mate thats what i mean, really giving the track a different feel, without changing the whole track. Would it be wise to finish a tune but leave maybe 4 or 8 bars of breakdown blank. When the tune is finished, empty the project and use the same sounds, automating tempo or such within the 4 or 8 blank bars, loads of effects (like the guy said the post above), some atmospheric elements. Then render the whole back intro the song? Or would this really sound redicilous?

I know this might be quite a strange question haha

Nah, not strange at all.

Part of it really has to do with the fact that most of us don't really "play" a musical instrument while we're mouseclicking/typing... so the flow that we perceive is happening inside our minds, not as much of a physical experience as it would be on a piano or whatever. So changing your approach in this regard is easy - just grab a real instrument, even if you don't plan on recording it, and mess around with parts and progressions. Take a loop and start jamming out variations over it, recording the jam - then go back and find the best bits and edit them into the song where needed to break up monotony. Another trick I've used is switching MIDI files (make the drum pattern MIDI drive a synth line and vice versa.)

And yes, the stuff above about taking the same elements and reworking them outside the tune, then bringing them back in - that can definitely work.

Mind you, there's also a little bit of a hidden danger in changing keys in terms of your final mixdown; tracks that stay in a certain key through the whole song and never change are easier to EQ because the fundamentals, overtones, & harmonics don't change so much, but changing key will often require subtle attention to the EQ as well, usually just re-centering the midrange up 40, 50, 60 Hz for instance.

Finally, there's some good stuff out there software-wise that can help with chord progressions. Been playing around with an iPhone app called Chordbot that's really good for this, and it writes MIDI or .wav files too.

alphacat wrote:

Deadpact wrote:

alphacat wrote:Different melodies... as simple as that. Electronic music is mired in the "I found a sort of cool little 3 note riff, so I will just loop that for all 6 minutes of my song except the breakdown" syndrome. Used to be choruses, verses, bridges, codas... which is not to say that you should aim for Beatles-ish time/key changes and the all that... but if your song sounds monotonous, then it probably is monotonous - just thematically speaking.

Yeah mate thats what i mean, really giving the track a different feel, without changing the whole track. Would it be wise to finish a tune but leave maybe 4 or 8 bars of breakdown blank. When the tune is finished, empty the project and use the same sounds, automating tempo or such within the 4 or 8 blank bars, loads of effects (like the guy said the post above), some atmospheric elements. Then render the whole back intro the song? Or would this really sound redicilous?

I know this might be quite a strange question haha

Nah, not strange at all.

Part of it really has to do with the fact that most of us don't really "play" a musical instrument while we're mouseclicking/typing... so the flow that we perceive is happening inside our minds, not as much of a physical experience as it would be on a piano or whatever. So changing your approach in this regard is easy - just grab a real instrument, even if you don't plan on recording it, and mess around with parts and progressions. Take a loop and start jamming out variations over it, recording the jam - then go back and find the best bits and edit them into the song where needed to break up monotony. Another trick I've used is switching MIDI files (make the drum pattern MIDI drive a synth line and vice versa.)

And yes, the stuff above about taking the same elements and reworking them outside the tune, then bringing them back in - that can definitely work.

Mind you, there's also a little bit of a hidden danger in changing keys in terms of your final mixdown; tracks that stay in a certain key through the whole song and never change are easier to EQ because the fundamentals, overtones, & harmonics don't change so much, but changing key will often require subtle attention to the EQ as well, usually just re-centering the midrange up 40, 50, 60 Hz for instance.

Finally, there's some good stuff out there software-wise that can help with chord progressions. Been playing around with an iPhone app called Chordbot that's really good for this, and it writes MIDI or .wav files too.

This helps a lot! I do play bass guitar and really enjoy playing along with drum loops that way you can have a whole band playing in the back of your mind while you are jamming along, but i'm fairly new to the production side of things.
It seems like the possibilitys are endless if you approach it in the right way.

alphacat wrote: Finally, there's some good stuff out there software-wise that can help with chord progressions. Been playing around with an iPhone app called Chordbot that's really good for this, and it writes MIDI or .wav files too.

Cthulu by xfer recs. is pure gold for this.

mthrfnk wrote:

alphacat wrote: Finally, there's some good stuff out there software-wise that can help with chord progressions. Been playing around with an iPhone app called Chordbot that's really good for this, and it writes MIDI or .wav files too.

Cthulu by xfer recs. is pure gold for this.

Yeah! I've been looking at this plug a lot lately... too bad I'm so broke.

On the iOS tip there's another one I literally just found 10 minutes ago called Accompanist that looks seriously nuts: you hum in a melody, and not only does it determine the pitch/chord values of what you're humming, but it can play back w/ a preloaded instrument, export it as MIDI, transpose into different keys, etc. Looking forward to trying this one at home in the bathroom tonight.

alphacat wrote:

mthrfnk wrote:

alphacat wrote: Finally, there's some good stuff out there software-wise that can help with chord progressions. Been playing around with an iPhone app called Chordbot that's really good for this, and it writes MIDI or .wav files too.

Cthulu by xfer recs. is pure gold for this.

Yeah! I've been looking at this plug a lot lately... too bad I'm so broke.

On the iOS tip there's another one I literally just found 10 minutes ago called Accompanist that looks seriously nuts: you hum in a melody, and not only does it determine the pitch/chord values of what you're humming, but it can play back w/ a preloaded instrument, export it as MIDI, transpose into different keys, etc. Looking forward to trying this one at home in the bathroom tonight.

Aw fuck, downloading.

The best thing i did to better myself in production was to learn (some) music theory and translate it to the piano.

The first time i pick up an instrument was 2 years ago. No prior training.

Now playing piano is one of my favorite things to do. Its so easy to get lost while playing, all of a sudden you'll notice an hour goes by and it feels like nothing. It will make composition 10000X's easier.

I always vary things at the end of each 8 bars. Like, drum roll, mini-build-up, etc.

study a tracks structure by detecting the tempo then drag the song into your DAW if you can , and align it with the bars and change your daw's tempo to the song you put in, and study how many bars and when sounds kick in, hope it helps

Some good advice in this thread which you would do well to put in to practice OP.

Striking a balance between repetition and thematic development can be really tricky to get your head round and something that lends it's self well to lots of experimentation in terms of certain compositional fundamentals, which I will list out for you. These are some of the things you should begin researching in to:

• Motif. You're probably already familiar with this concept. It is simply a musical idea that repeats throughout the song and is arguably the strongest element in establishing a theme to your tune. Motifs can exist rhythmically, melodically, harmonically or even as a combination of any and all of these. Listen to some of your favorite tunes and pay attention to repeating themes and more importantly how the basic underlying theme is developed throughout the composition. Example. Notice how the main theme is established immediately by the chordal harmony of the choir vocals. The melodic line of the lead that comes in in the next section is then base upon the notes from the same chord progression except playing in arpeggio across a few octaves, then the motif is developed further in the next section where the top (prominent) notes from the original chordal harmony (intro choir) are played rhythmically identical to it's original form though this time expressed with a different timbre. So on and so forth. This is a good example of use of motif for theming and developing that motif for creating movement/progression to the composition.
• Cadence. Also known as Reposition (some information on tension and reposition). Even if you don't develop a motif through variation (loopitus ), proper use of cadence can still add a lot of perceived movement to a tune. Reposition is a melodic or rhythmic (or otherwise) statement that signifies the end of a section. The use of Cadence can clearly establish the sections of a songs structure, even if each section is identical, by saying 'this is the end of a section and the start of another'. Repeating 16 bar loops of melody in trance use this a lot, the end of each section will feel very much like a finality, even though the next section is actually the same melodically the song doesn't feel stagnant which is largely due to clever use of cadence. Here is a pretty in depth discussion on Cadence, Phrasing and Composition.
• Accidental (or otherwise melodic shufflage). The use of accidentals isn't exactly what I'm getting at per-see, though they can still add a lot of flavour to a tune. What I'm getting at are the slight variations to your core motif, little one note differences thrown in here and there that turn an otherwise static repetition in to a more organic experience. This concept is actually quite practical in terms of a compositional tool. Here is a prime example of what I mean by this. The intro section to this tune is essentially 1 '2 bar motif' that's had several ( i think 8 ) core variations of it developed which play roughly in sequence. What is very clever about this intro is actually in the producers use of variating the order of the 8 variations within each 16 bar loop (there are 2 of them, 32 bar intro); as well as the clever use of accidentals and slight variations of the core motifs at certain points. The end result is an amazingly organic and evolving opening melody that retains a strong identity yet travels through a very complete and self enclosed journey of development, not only creating enough interest to entice the listener into the rest of the tune, but establishes a prominent theme that is retained throughout the rest of the tune. It is masterfully done and expresses strongly how effective a tool of composition accidentals and the general use of motif can be.

I would advise breaking down a couple of your favorite songs and engaging with them in a critical manner. Analyzing exactly what is happening in terms of the aforementioned compositional fundamentals and attempting to apply the same underlying practical theory to as many practice sessions as you need to carry out in order to get a comfortable grasp on how to add these musical concepts into your workflow, and how exactly these concepts effect the musical experience in general.

^ Turnipish wins the thread.