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I keep finding myself getting stumped while producing. I've been at this for about a year, and have been taking it seriously over the past few months, but can't seem to get any concrete ideas down when it comes to bass. I've read most of the production bible, and I know my way around massive pretty well (my go-to synth at the moment). I feel that I can make a decent lead and chord/pad, but keep getting stumped on bass parts. I have an example here to show you what I mean.

https://soundcloud.com/tehnevs/epic-chords-demo

I've been working on that little bit for the past week or so, I still don't have a good grip on workflow yet. I've probably spent about 12 hours total tweaking this one little part of the song, but I can't figure out what else to do with it. I feel like after the buildup, I need some cool bass parts in between the chords, but everything I come up with just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe someone on here can listen to/critique this for me? I'm just stumped. Any advise would really help

Stuck how? Like sound design wise? Or writing making the bass work musically?

fragments wrote:Stuck how? Like sound design wise? Or writing making the bass work musically?

A bit of Both, I can't seem to make a bass line that fits within the context of the song, if that makes sense. I get stuck in this spot with everything I write. I usually start out by producing a melody that I like, and build the song from there and when I get to the climax of the song I just don't know what to do.

Just keep at it man. There is no rush. You could be the next Jimi Hendrix for all I know but I highly doubt Jimi was a prodigy after a 'few months' of taking music seriously.
I couldn't tell you much about making crazy bass (I listened to your riddim - sounds like you're aiming for some Skrillex-esque sounds) because it honestly doesn't interest me that much, but whatever sound or style you're trying to achieve will almost certainly take you more than a few months to pull off convincingly.

My advice in this instance would be to forget about that tune. Start another one. Start another ten. Spend a whole day just playing with Massive if that's your go-to synth. You could spend 4 years tweaking one riddim but it won't do much good in the grand scheme of things. Like I said, there is no rush. I hate to use myself as an example but I've been making electronic music for about 8 or 9 years and it's only this year that I've been offered (and accepted) my first release with a respectable label. Keep banging out tracks as much as you can. I find going back and forth between projects helps me come at them fresh every time!

£10 Bag wrote:Just keep at it man. There is no rush. You could be the next Jimi Hendrix for all I know but I highly doubt Jimi was a prodigy after a 'few months' of taking music seriously.
I couldn't tell you much about making crazy bass (I listened to your riddim - sounds like you're aiming for some Skrillex-esque sounds) because it honestly doesn't interest me that much, but whatever sound or style you're trying to achieve will almost certainly take you more than a few months to pull off convincingly.

My advice in this instance would be to forget about that tune. Start another one. Start another ten. Spend a whole day just playing with Massive if that's your go-to synth. You could spend 4 years tweaking one riddim but it won't do much good in the grand scheme of things. Like I said, there is no rush. I hate to use myself as an example but I've been making electronic music for about 8 or 9 years and it's only this year that I've been offered (and accepted) my first release with a respectable label. Keep banging out tracks as much as you can. I find going back and forth between projects helps me come at them fresh every time!

Not really Skrillex, but I like melodies and pad sounds. I was in orchestra for 8 years, so I have a soft spot for melodies and dynamics, so I tend to find myself writing things like that. I was going for more of a Seven Lions feel with the chords. I really should move on to something else and then come back to it later, thanks for the advise!

Nevs wrote:

fragments wrote:Stuck how? Like sound design wise? Or writing making the bass work musically?

A bit of Both, I can't seem to make a bass line that fits within the context of the song, if that makes sense. I get stuck in this spot with everything I write. I usually start out by producing a melody that I like, and build the song from there and when I get to the climax of the song I just don't know what to do.

If it's general arrangement problem, try writing the fullest part of the song first or the climax first, then deconstruct that into an intro, outro, other sections. What context? Rhythmically? Melodically? Fitting it in the mix?

fragments wrote:

Nevs wrote:

fragments wrote:Stuck how? Like sound design wise? Or writing making the bass work musically?

A bit of Both, I can't seem to make a bass line that fits within the context of the song, if that makes sense. I get stuck in this spot with everything I write. I usually start out by producing a melody that I like, and build the song from there and when I get to the climax of the song I just don't know what to do.

If it's general arrangement problem, try writing the fullest part of the song first or the climax first, then deconstruct that into an intro, outro, other sections. What context? Rhythmically? Melodically? Fitting it in the mix?

Thats a good idea, I'm sitting down at the moment and just making sounds to come back to later, I guess I need to build up my sound collection up more so I don't have to try to construct my sounds as I am making the song. That's generally what I've been doing so far, because I feel like I need to make a synth patch that's going to fit into the context of what I'm producing, rather than having a ton of synth patches. But getting it to fit rhythmically and melodically seems to be my biggest issue. None of the bass patches I make seem to work in the context of what I'm producing.

Write the chord progression and then the bass. Write everything else around that. Hell, write the bass rhythm before everything else and write the notes later.

fragments wrote:

Nevs wrote:

fragments wrote:Stuck how? Like sound design wise? Or writing making the bass work musically?

A bit of Both, I can't seem to make a bass line that fits within the context of the song, if that makes sense. I get stuck in this spot with everything I write. I usually start out by producing a melody that I like, and build the song from there and when I get to the climax of the song I just don't know what to do.

If it's general arrangement problem, try writing the fullest part of the song first or the climax first, then deconstruct that into an intro, outro, other sections. What context? Rhythmically? Melodically? Fitting it in the mix?

This is very good advice and it also helps to ensure that the chorus/drop is the most the climactic part of your song. The links below are some examples of how bass was used in 2 very different styles of Dubstep.

http://blog.dubspot.com/electronic-musi ... -root-dmz/
http://blog.dubspot.com/electronic-musi ... ist-style/

I feel that I can make a decent lead and chord/pad, but keep getting stumped on bass parts. I have an example here to show you what I mean.

I'm curious do you just make chords with no basslines when you producing or what?

but I've been making electronic music for about 8 or 9 years and it's only this year that I've been offered (and accepted) my first release with a respectable label. Keep banging out tracks as much as you can.

Holy shit man 8 years, how long were you taking it seriously though? I'm just curious to about this thing of how long it takes for someone to get good at song arrangement and ish. Because that ish is frustrating as hell. It's cool to come up with cool 8 bar loops, but building it up to a song.

bogling wrote:Holy shit man 8 years, how long were you taking it seriously though? I'm just curious to about this thing of how long it takes for someone to get good at song arrangement and ish. Because that ish is frustrating as hell. It's cool to come up with cool 8 bar loops, but building it up to a song.

Everyone has different strengths. Arrangement, songwriting, sampling and especially drumprogramming is my strength, mixdown and sound design is my weakness. Though they're finally catching up after... 5 years (and after having neglected both for a long time).

Try approaching arrangement from a completely different perspective than you did before. Stop thinking about 8-bar loops but get a rough outline of what you want out of a song first. THEN let that inspire your 'main part' and intro.

bogling wrote:Holy shit man 8 years, how long were you taking it seriously though? I'm just curious to about this thing of how long it takes for someone to get good at song arrangement and ish. Because that ish is frustrating as hell. It's cool to come up with cool 8 bar loops, but building it up to a song.

Depends on your definition of 'serious' man. I've had the same outlook on beat making since I started: try to be original and have FUN producing.

If you're having trouble with arrangements in particular I'd suggest loading a track you admire in to your DAW, match the BPM then replicate the general structure of that tune with empty sequencer blocks. Mute the imported tune then start programming your drums and synths etc in to the empty blocks you laid out. Boom - an arranged tune which should hold your interest and be DJ-friendly!

How long it takes to get 'good' is a matter of opinion I think and depends on what your goal is...I've been offered deals before but I didn't feel like my beats or the labels offering the deals were on the level I wanted. I wanna be proud of my first release and I want it to be original. It's not hard to bang out some shit which some people and labels would consider 'good', but is 'good' really good enough?

Anyway don't take my word as fact or 100% applicable cos I don't really make dubstep or DJ-friendly dance music and I'm overly introverted about my music...I do it cos I feel I have to, not for any particular end result.

My basic tips:
1)Start with a 4 chord structure, then expand it to 8 - change up the last few chords on the second round. Think outsie the box with the chords, using a keyboard helps with this - honestly I just play what sounds good/right and flesh the chords out from there (adding upper and lower octave notes)
2)Give the chords some rhythm, even it's just basic 4x4 chops
3)Write a lead/melody over the top using the same notes from (or notes in key with) your chords, again give them rhythym and humanize them - no one wants to listen to a straight set of bar long notes.
4)Write your bassline, it could be as simple as the bottom notes from your chords - and then again give it rhythym/chop up the notes.
5)Now compile this into a decent structure, try not to have to much at once and aim to get everything complimenting everything - so don't just layer a shit ton of synths playing a shit ton of notes.

On structure, I still play it pretty safe - intro/build/main/break/build/main with variation/break/outro and I like to vary the synths and instruments throughout this e.g. intro the song with piano, build using an arp, have the main with some chunky synths/bass, breakdown to piano/choir/strings and build again etc...

Personally I like to work in piano or basic saw sounds before expanding out into different sounds - it helps me to focus on the actual musical aspect rather than thinking about how fucking uber filthy my bass is going to be

In terms of your song you seem to have pretty much all of what I said covered, its just a matter of continually producing and progressing. Your build lacks energy, so I'd strip it back some, and make your drums more interesting - they're so "standard". The drop is weak because you don't have a "drop" - you're just continuing the same kick and chords but with an added snare. Variation is key. For bass design check out the big reese and growl bass threads by the sounds of your track you're after something like that to juxtapose between your chords (not unlike this perhaps? http://soundcloud.com/spectrafunk/out-of-time-wip-stuff)

Mike Renai wrote:

fragments wrote:

Nevs wrote:

fragments wrote:Stuck how? Like sound design wise? Or writing making the bass work musically?

A bit of Both, I can't seem to make a bass line that fits within the context of the song, if that makes sense. I get stuck in this spot with everything I write. I usually start out by producing a melody that I like, and build the song from there and when I get to the climax of the song I just don't know what to do.

If it's general arrangement problem, try writing the fullest part of the song first or the climax first, then deconstruct that into an intro, outro, other sections. What context? Rhythmically? Melodically? Fitting it in the mix?

This is very good advice and it also helps to ensure that the chorus/drop is the most the climactic part of your song. The links below are some examples of how bass was used in 2 very different styles of Dubstep.

http://blog.dubspot.com/electronic-musi ... -root-dmz/
http://blog.dubspot.com/electronic-musi ... ist-style/

Thanks for those links! I'll definitely read those when I get the chance, looks like some good information

bogling wrote:
I'm curious do you just make chords with no basslines when you producing or what?

That's sort of how I started off with this short piece. I had a chord progression I liked (at the beginning) and layered a sub underneath it. Then spend some time making that arp that goes over it all.

mthrfnk wrote:My basic tips:
1)Start with a 4 chord structure, then expand it to 8 - change up the last few chords on the second round. Think outsie the box with the chords, using a keyboard helps with this - honestly I just play what sounds good/right and flesh the chords out from there (adding upper and lower octave notes)
2)Give the chords some rhythm, even it's just basic 4x4 chops
3)Write a lead/melody over the top using the same notes from (or notes in key with) your chords, again give them rhythym and humanize them - no one wants to listen to a straight set of bar long notes.
4)Write your bassline, it could be as simple as the bottom notes from your chords - and then again give it rhythym/chop up the notes.
5)Now compile this into a decent structure, try not to have to much at once and aim to get everything complimenting everything - so don't just layer a shit ton of synths playing a shit ton of notes.

On structure, I still play it pretty safe - intro/build/main/break/build/main with variation/break/outro and I like to vary the synths and instruments throughout this e.g. intro the song with piano, build using an arp, have the main with some chunky synths/bass, breakdown to piano/choir/strings and build again etc...

Personally I like to work in piano or basic saw sounds before expanding out into different sounds - it helps me to focus on the actual musical aspect rather than thinking about how fucking uber filthy my bass is going to be

In terms of your song you seem to have pretty much all of what I said covered, its just a matter of continually producing and progressing. Your build lacks energy, so I'd strip it back some, and make your drums more interesting - they're so "standard". The drop is weak because you don't have a "drop" - you're just continuing the same kick and chords but with an added snare. Variation is key. For bass design check out the big reese and growl bass threads by the sounds of your track you're after something like that to juxtapose between your chords (not unlike this perhaps? http://soundcloud.com/spectrafunk/out-of-time-wip-stuff)

This is exactly what I was looking for, I'll give this a try. I should build a loose structure before trying to make everything perfect. I agree with your suggestion on the drums, I knew they were lame and I had not actually finished working on them yet, I was just trying to move on and come back to it later. I'll look more at the reeses and growls, since I think thats probably what I'm going for, the song you linked is a very good representation of the sound I was trying to get out of this tune. Thanks

Any tips for the sub-bass in my track? I can't seem to make it sit right, it seems a little too loud? but when I turn it down it doesn't have much impact. about what db would you typically set a sub to when talking about gain structure? And, would you layer that sub with both the chords and the bass? or just one or the other.

i have this same issue, found something that works for me, maybe it'll do it for you too..

when i start a project, i'll make the melodies, basslines etc in simple square waves. nothing else, no sound design whatsoever. I'll put in the bare minimum i can get away wityh drumwise if it's needed to get a feel for the flow.

with this setup i map out the complete song. get the placing of the drops, breakdowns etc. where i want them, and THEN start working on sound design. I find it way easier to "hear" the sounds i'm trying to make in the context of a template like this.

just my 0.02$

p0seur wrote:i have this same issue, found something that works for me, maybe it'll do it for you too..

when i start a project, i'll make the melodies, basslines etc in simple square waves. nothing else, no sound design whatsoever. I'll put in the bare minimum i can get away wityh drumwise if it's needed to get a feel for the flow.

with this setup i map out the complete song. get the placing of the drops, breakdowns etc. where i want them, and THEN start working on sound design. I find it way easier to "hear" the sounds i'm trying to make in the context of a template like this.

just my 0.02$

Someone else mentioned this, I thought it was a great idea, I'm going to set this up. Another idea to take it a step further would be to lay this out and then set it up as a template in your DAW, so you can open it up and have it ready to go anytime you want to make a song. Would save a lot of time and I'd have a mix friendly track laid out and ready to go! It can always be rearranged from this point as well. Might do one for each genre I'm trying to produce in? One for House, dubstep, DnB, ect.

Also, didn't get any responses about my Sub bass, even though it's a little off the original topic. I can't seem to make it sit right, it seems a little too loud? but when I turn it down it doesn't have much impact. about what db would you typically set a sub to when talking about gain structure? And, would you layer that sub with both the chords and the bass? or just one or the other.

Nevs wrote:Another idea to take it a step further would be to lay this out and then set it up as a template in your DAW, so you can open it up and have it ready to go anytime you want to make a song.

I would be careful doing this. As you said, you can always rearrange it... but I dunno, it will be very easy to get lazy and arrange all of your songs the same way.

Nevs wrote:Also, didn't get any responses about my Sub bass, even though it's a little off the original topic. I can't seem to make it sit right, it seems a little too loud? but when I turn it down it doesn't have much impact. about what db would you typically set a sub to when talking about gain structure? And, would you layer that sub with both the chords and the bass? or just one or the other.

EQ. compressors and limiters might also help you out. you'll have to experiment. just make sure your sub isn't clipping.

-charles

charles1 wrote: -charles

Why do you add that weird ass video to all your posts? You know you can add it to your signature and it sits below your posts automatically?
Link: http://www.dubstepforum.com/ucp.php?i=p ... =signature

Also for chords/sub bass etc. I layer my chords with all the low end cut, a midrange bass (100Hz-500Hz ish) playing the lowest set of notes and the sub cut, and a dedicated sub layer again playing the lowest set of notes. All these normally get bussed together with adequate EQ/compression/saturation/stereo fx (keep the bass mono).

Sometimes I have other midrange or strings/choirs playing the higher notes of the chords too. I also roll off the top end (16-18kHz ish) because sometimes with supersaws you can start to push the top end too much and it'll become piercing.

mthrfnk wrote:

charles1 wrote: -charles

Why do you add that weird ass video to all your posts? You know you can add it to your signature and it sits below your posts automatically?
Link: http://www.dubstepforum.com/ucp.php?i=p ... =signature

Also for chords/sub bass etc. I layer my chords with all the low end cut, a midrange bass (100Hz-500Hz ish) playing the lowest set of notes and the sub cut, and a dedicated sub layer again playing the lowest set of notes. All these normally get bussed together with adequate EQ/compression/saturation/stereo fx (keep the bass mono).

Sometimes I have other midrange or strings/choirs playing the higher notes of the chords too. I also roll off the top end (16-18kHz ish) because sometimes with supersaws you can start to push the top end too much and it'll become piercing.

Don't fully understand your first paragraph, what do you mean by "low end cut" and "sub cut"? Are these the same thing? Do you mean you layer the chords with a sub, buss those two together, then a midrange bass and sub, buss those two together, and then another sub under all of that along with compression/effects? I don't really follow you, sorry .

Nevs wrote:

mthrfnk wrote:

charles1 wrote: -charles

Why do you add that weird ass video to all your posts? You know you can add it to your signature and it sits below your posts automatically?
Link: http://www.dubstepforum.com/ucp.php?i=p ... =signature

Also for chords/sub bass etc. I layer my chords with all the low end cut, a midrange bass (100Hz-500Hz ish) playing the lowest set of notes and the sub cut, and a dedicated sub layer again playing the lowest set of notes. All these normally get bussed together with adequate EQ/compression/saturation/stereo fx (keep the bass mono).

Sometimes I have other midrange or strings/choirs playing the higher notes of the chords too. I also roll off the top end (16-18kHz ish) because sometimes with supersaws you can start to push the top end too much and it'll become piercing.

Don't fully understand your first paragraph, what do you mean by "low end cut" and "sub cut"? Are these the same thing? Do you mean you layer the chords with a sub, buss those two together, then a midrange bass and sub, buss those two together, and then another sub under all of that along with compression/effects? I don't really follow you, sorry .

By low cut, I meant the general low end - basically anywhere the midrange bass is filling in. Say have a smooth roll off at 400Hz, so you still have some bleeding through - but I'd ensure <100Hz is completely cut.
By sub cut, I meant exactly that - so wherever your sub is sitting, say 60Hz and lower?

I have a bass buss and a synth buss (in addition I also have others e.g. drum buss/orchestra buss/vox buss etc. but those don't matter here) , on both I normally have some form of EQ, again just ensuring each set of synths isn't overstepping the range it should be in and some light compression and saturation to help "glue" the sounds. These busses then go to the master where everything is summed.