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So recently I've been doing detailed work in Massive and FM8; really trying to take these synths to their full potential.

I macro everything out so that I can create many different sounds within the same synth. I like to leave an LFO on one filter and an envelope on the other, and swap in between them. I like to setup velocity to adjust the time on my envelopes. Things of this nature to really get a complex sound from one instance of the synth. This process is what I do to create bass sounds.

For my mid to high end synth sounds I usually don't go through this process of sound design.

Just recently I started layering multiple instances of the same synth to thicken the sound. In one id adjust the oscillators pitch to -12 and another to 0 while on the second patch Id 0 and +12; then I'd do things like adjust the filters, reverb, decay, separately to create these complex, evolving sounds.

What are some things you guys would change between two instances of the same patch to make things more interesting?

Distortion, always <3 And waveforms, mix dat shit up!

Don't swap between the two filters, use both of them at the same time.

Use two bandreject filters with different settings in parallel and you can get some thicker crunchier shizz.

with distorted basses the high end tends to get destroyed easiest so i just make another version of the sound with less distortion, highpass it then tweak it till the high end sounds cleaner/crispier & layer the two.
the main synth i tweak is mainly mid frequencies so if i cant get it sounding any better i will add fx to it (phaser, flanger or a bit of filtering) or just layer more mid range synths together. i don't use massive etc but you can apply this, it works like frequency splitting but sounds more natural and easier to set up.

Mess with the stereo field maybe? You could hard pan them to either side. Though that might sound really chaotic if you've got vastly different effects going on between the two. You could probably get some really funky stuff going with mid/side EQ'ing too. Like the Lows from patch one and the highs from patch 2 in the middle, and visa versa for the sides.

Not just distortion: odd order harmonics are what you might be after specifically.

I'm not looking for anything in specific. Just parameters you like to modulate, changes you like to make between patches, ect.

@sunny good idea, Depending on the sound sometimes Ill low pass the high end and let my favorite distortion VST's add their own character to the high end.

U could try bumping and reversing one of those layers..

use a waveshaper and also get the base sound as thick as you can before adding distortion.

First off I split the output instead of creating another instance.
Then the very first thing you do to create more width, is delay one of the channels by 1 - 30ms.
Another thing you can do is apply slight filtering on one, or add distortion in parallel.

But if you don't do the delay thing yet you will be surprised Also that's done in every recording you hear which has a guitar in it.

AxeD wrote:First off I split the output instead of creating another instance.
Then the very first thing you do to create more width, is delay one of the channels by 1 - 30ms.
Another thing you can do is apply slight filtering on one, or add distortion in parallel.

But if you don't do the delay thing yet you will be surprised Also that's done in every recording you hear which has a guitar in it.

Are you talking about the Haas effect?

Make a distortion return and blend either of the patches in with it, add saturation plugs as well to create subtle differences. For making a synth sound thicker, I really like both Valhalla Ubermod and VOS thrillseeker. Thrillseeker is an excellent plugin at adding a subtle warmth and can really enhance a synth sound, Valhalla ubermod can produce some really interesting stereo field effects amongst other things that can add to the density of a sound and go to extremes as well in numerous ways. Even with just these suggestions there are endless combinations for layering patches, then you could automate these plugins to create further changes.

When i say thicken a sound, i mean add depth and interest. When I duplicate an instance of a VST I would change filter envelopes, decay (+1-2 seconds), reverb, volume envelopes, vibrato, ect. I just wanted to see if anyone else used this method, and if so Id like to talk about what changes you made in between the patches, MIDI clips, and added effects to add complexity to the rift.

Some are going to hate the reference but dodge and fuski did a good tutorial on what im talking about.



Skip to 6:30, he explains the patches in python and how he layered different patches together.

@AxeD Just splitting the signal is really restrictive, its good if your just trying to add effects on different bands but getting two different instances of the patch allows for more complex sound design and opens up parameters that would be impossible to replicate without tweaking the patch itself.

@Dub Thrillseeker looks awesome, thanks for the recommendation.

Get thrillseeker and a load of other free VST's here

http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/downloads/

mromgwtf wrote:

AxeD wrote:First off I split the output instead of creating another instance.
Then the very first thing you do to create more width, is delay one of the channels by 1 - 30ms.
Another thing you can do is apply slight filtering on one, or add distortion in parallel.

But if you don't do the delay thing yet you will be surprised Also that's done in every recording you hear which has a guitar in it.

Are you talking about the Haas effect?

Well yeah, but I don't want to make it about sound theory. I mean if you go over that 30ms mark it's not going to work of course

@outdropt In Reason it's not restrictive at all

AxeD wrote:

mromgwtf wrote:

AxeD wrote:First off I split the output instead of creating another instance.
Then the very first thing you do to create more width, is delay one of the channels by 1 - 30ms.
Another thing you can do is apply slight filtering on one, or add distortion in parallel.

But if you don't do the delay thing yet you will be surprised Also that's done in every recording you hear which has a guitar in it.

Are you talking about the Haas effect?

Well yeah, but I don't want to make it about sound theory. I mean if you go over that 30ms mark it's not going to work of course

@outdropt In Reason it's not restrictive at all

Here is an example of what i'm referring to.

Yesterday I was reworking a project and i thought the lead could use some flair and more high end.

I took the lead, then duplicated the instance. I then pitched all of the oscillators up +12 (carefully choosing which waveforms sounded best at 0, +12, +24)

I then mapped the vibrato to velocity. I also turned the reverb tail up and created an opening effect using an envelop and a LP filter, with the time mapped to the velocity as well.

This layered with the original gave interest throughout the duration of each note.

You find me a way to do that outside of the VST and ill bow down too you you Sound design goddess.

In this thread I was looking for peoples examples like that ^^^^ for me to test out. The title was kinda deceiving wasn't it

I'm not one for making things overly complicated, but you're right the easiest way to do all of that would be a copy
of the whole instance.
I was more talking about creating more stereo width, but I get you're on about layering so not necessarily panning both outputs differently.

I honestly don't do a lot of layering outside of my drums. But completely depends on what kind of sound you are after of course.

AxeD wrote:

mromgwtf wrote:

AxeD wrote:First off I split the output instead of creating another instance.
Then the very first thing you do to create more width, is delay one of the channels by 1 - 30ms.
Another thing you can do is apply slight filtering on one, or add distortion in parallel.

But if you don't do the delay thing yet you will be surprised Also that's done in every recording you hear which has a guitar in it.

Are you talking about the Haas effect?

Well yeah, but I don't want to make it about sound theory. I mean if you go over that 30ms mark it's not going to work of course

@outdropt In Reason it's not restrictive at all

Doesn't the "Dimension Expander" In massive do the same effect?
When I want something to sound wide, I just turn on the dim. expander. Put the Dry/Wet to almost max and Size to zero.. Works every time!

Also now I'm thinking about like leaving the layer with -24/-12 without widening it to leave the strength of the sound...

Icetickle wrote:

AxeD wrote:

mromgwtf wrote:

AxeD wrote:First off I split the output instead of creating another instance.
Then the very first thing you do to create more width, is delay one of the channels by 1 - 30ms.
Another thing you can do is apply slight filtering on one, or add distortion in parallel.

But if you don't do the delay thing yet you will be surprised Also that's done in every recording you hear which has a guitar in it.

Are you talking about the Haas effect?

Well yeah, but I don't want to make it about sound theory. I mean if you go over that 30ms mark it's not going to work of course

@outdropt In Reason it's not restrictive at all

Doesn't the "Dimension Expander" In massive do the same effect?
When I want something to sound wide, I just turn on the dim. expander. Put the Dry/Wet to almost max and Size to zero.. Works every time!

Also now I'm thinking about like leaving the layer with -24/-12 without widening it to leave the strength of the sound...

Well you dont widen the waves themselves(didnt come up with a better way to word it..), but add width in the form of a short delay I think it is. Steve duda created a free vst that replicates the dimension expander effect, and explained how it works on I think gearslutz or something. If you keep the dry/wet at mostly dry you should have a really wide sound, but with that strength amd punch

Why jump to special vsts immediately though? It's a lot of fun to create these multi effects yourself, plus if you want
a lot of parameters.. that's the way to go

Icetickle wrote:

AxeD wrote:

mromgwtf wrote:

AxeD wrote:First off I split the output instead of creating another instance.
Then the very first thing you do to create more width, is delay one of the channels by 1 - 30ms.
Another thing you can do is apply slight filtering on one, or add distortion in parallel.

But if you don't do the delay thing yet you will be surprised Also that's done in every recording you hear which has a guitar in it.

Are you talking about the Haas effect?

Well yeah, but I don't want to make it about sound theory. I mean if you go over that 30ms mark it's not going to work of course

@outdropt In Reason it's not restrictive at all

Doesn't the "Dimension Expander" In massive do the same effect?
When I want something to sound wide, I just turn on the dim. expander. Put the Dry/Wet to almost max and Size to zero.. Works every time!

Also now I'm thinking about like leaving the layer with -24/-12 without widening it to leave the strength of the sound...

Massive Manual is your friend!

• Dimension Expander: a combination of delay and chorus effects. The
Dimension Expander creates very clear room-style spatial effects. The
sound is more diffuse than DelayShort, but less cloudy than the Space
effects.

It adds a short delay, and adds chorus to the delay wet signal.