Dubstepforum.com

A post on another board got me digging out my old Warriors Dance records from around 1990.... Addis Posse, Melancholy Man, Bang The Party, No Smoke - and that made me realise that there was something in them - a real "London feel" and a certain kind of emotiveness - that was a fore-runner of a lot of UKG and dubstep.

Most of the time dubstep history is discussed in terms of dark garage, D&B, dub and maybe Todd Edwards, but this made me think of other, more diverse music that is in the makeup of this sound. There was the discussion on here a while back about whether Roots Manuva foresaw dubstep with 'Witness'; though the consensus was not, I definitely think he tapped into a UK bass sound palette and stumbling beat programming that would come again as dubstep. Soul II Soul, too, had something of that - and they were certainly a direct influence on people like Wookie and MJ Cole and thus on dubstep. But what about the Bristol bands - Massive Attack, Tricky, Portishead etc? Were many garage/dubstep people listening to them BITD?

I've wondered for a while also whether R&B is an unsung influence - particularly Timbaland with Missy / Destinys Child / Aaliyah. As far as I can see, that was the music that showed the world that you could dance to what is effectively a 70bpm beat, and that beat programming could be waaaaay of-centre from the classic boom-bap and still work in a club - I remember a great Geiom mix from a while back that kicks off with a Missy/Timbo track which mixes perfectly into wobble...

Me, off the top of my head, reckon that Bristol, Soul II Soul, London Possee were all influential – they certainly influenced the UK garage lot. Didn't Wookie work out of Jazzie B's office which was why he could rework Fairplay and all those other tunes? Lovers Rock and 80s soul before that was massively influential for people like Photek, Goldie, Fabio and probably most of the pre-jump-up junglists so should take it's place in the prehistory rollcall.

Ewah wrote:Didn't Wookie work out of Jazzie B's office which was why he could rework Fairplay and all those other tunes?

Ewah, correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't his office "The Africa Centre"?

anyone remember "lost" tecno bizo kinda swingy (steve bicknill or something like that) ,not to far different from alot dubstep these day

seckle wrote:

Ewah wrote:Didn't Wookie work out of Jazzie B's office which was why he could rework Fairplay and all those other tunes?

Ewah, correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't his office "The Africa Centre"?

i think it might have been in '88, but by 2000 or so, Wookie was in S2S's HQ in camden. that's where i saw him anyway...

Joe Muggs wrote:A post on another board got me digging out my old Warriors Dance records from around 1990.... Addis Posse, Melancholy Man, Bang The Party, No Smoke - and that made me realise that there was something in them - a real "London feel" and a certain kind of emotiveness - that was a fore-runner of a lot of UKG and dubstep.

Most of the time dubstep history is discussed in terms of dark garage, D&B, dub and maybe Todd Edwards, but this made me think of other, more diverse music that is in the makeup of this sound. There was the discussion on here a while back about whether Roots Manuva foresaw dubstep with 'Witness'; though the consensus was not, I definitely think he tapped into a UK bass sound palette and stumbling beat programming that would come again as dubstep. Soul II Soul, too, had something of that - and they were certainly a direct influence on people like Wookie and MJ Cole and thus on dubstep. But what about the Bristol bands - Massive Attack, Tricky, Portishead etc? Were many garage/dubstep people listening to them BITD?

I've wondered for a while also whether R&B is an unsung influence - particularly Timbaland with Missy / Destinys Child / Aaliyah. As far as I can see, that was the music that showed the world that you could dance to what is effectively a 70bpm beat, and that beat programming could be waaaaay of-centre from the classic boom-bap and still work in a club - I remember a great Geiom mix from a while back that kicks off with a Missy/Timbo track which mixes perfectly into wobble...

i think people need to be careful making a distinction between direct influence and just precedants.

ie Timbaland is a massive, direct influence given you can rationalise 2step garage - dubstep's most direct forefather - as the interaction between timbaland r&b and jungle bass at house n NY garage speed.

but stuff like Portishead and Soul 2 Soul were just two of many styles to display a dub influence. this isn't a forfather of '00s dubstep, morelike a descendent of 70s dub reggae.

Blackdown wrote:

seckle wrote:

Ewah wrote:Didn't Wookie work out of Jazzie B's office which was why he could rework Fairplay and all those other tunes?

Ewah, correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't his office "The Africa Centre"?

i think it might have been in '88, but by 2000 or so, Wookie was in S2S's HQ in camden. that's where i saw him anyway...

Yeah he had his own room there. They mixed the album through a Neve Vr Legend Desk with a proper mix engineer. Which is why that album sounds so warm when compared to 99% of the stuff that was coming out around 1999/2000.

Blackdown wrote: but stuff like Portishead and Soul 2 Soul were just two of many styles to display a dub influence. this isn't a forfather of '00s dubstep, morelike a descendent of 70s dub reggae.

Oh there's definitely a difference between direct descent and 'being in the same family'. You might call Portishead a great uncle of certain strands of dubstep or something... but I'd be willing to bet there are dubstep producers who were influenced especially by Portishead's amazing drum production and creative use of compression, as well as by the bluesy moods of their songs. After all, if Dr Dre counts them as influential, surely a few UK producers do!

Soul II Soul I would say are a more direct influence though, as has been noted, through Wookie, MJ Cole et al. I do wonder whether the actual musical influence of SIIS, and the less moody strains of garage that followed them, get written off a little bit simply because they were not as "underground" as jungle, hardcore or dark garage.

With things like Portishead, i think you need to put yourself in the eyes of a garage producer circa the late 90s.

just because *you* might have read about Portishead in Muzik mag at the time, doesn't mean they had any impact or influence within urban london at the time. for a modern comparison, try asking the average Hackney 14 year old about Pendulum now: you'd get blank looks.

there were exceptions though. i was always excited to see El-B was into Basic Channel and UR, but i think that was a leftover from the early rave days when things were more inclusive, unlike the fragmentation that went on mid 90s.

Blackdown wrote:With things like Portishead, i think you need to put yourself in the eyes of a garage producer circa the late 90s.

just because *you* might have read about Portishead in Muzik mag at the time, doesn't mean they had any impact or influence within urban london at the time. for a modern comparison, try asking the average Hackney 14 year old about Pendulum now: you'd get blank looks.

True - but I wasn't suggesting they had the same line of influence as Soul II Soul. They may not have been of interest to the garage wave of producers but I imagine that a lot of the later dubsteppers (especially in Bristol!) knew of their music.

The other Bristolians though - early Massive Attack and Smith & Mighty particularly - are a more obvious influence, though, as they definitely inspired the DJs/producers in jungle/hardcore during that time of rave inclusiveness which you describe...

One other unsung influence I'd suggest is Meat Beat Manifesto! Radio Babylon was definitely important to hardcore, and I would suggest that their Shamen remix, the break from which then got sampled in 'Dancehall Dangerous' by Hackney Hardcore, ushered in the syncopated break cut-ups that would be vital to jungle.

Joe Muggs wrote:Soul II Soul I would say are a more direct influence though, as has been noted, through Wookie, MJ Cole et al. I do wonder whether the actual musical influence of SIIS, and the less moody strains of garage that followed them, get written off a little bit simply because they were not as "underground" as jungle, hardcore or dark garage.

Let's face it, less moody strains always get written off. Thing is with loads of the dark garage, it wasn't really dark in the way it's seen now, just night music really, the Spooks by El-b being a good example, got more of a sense of mischief, nothing dark about it at all really, certainly not compared to a lot of modern dubstep.

Joe Muggs wrote:

Blackdown wrote: but stuff like Portishead and Soul 2 Soul were just two of many styles to display a dub influence. this isn't a forfather of '00s dubstep, morelike a descendent of 70s dub reggae.

Oh there's definitely a difference between direct descent and 'being in the same family'. You might call Portishead a great uncle of certain strands of dubstep or something... but I'd be willing to bet there are dubstep producers who were influenced especially by Portishead's amazing drum production and creative use of compression, as well as by the bluesy moods of their songs.

Portishead were more influenced by movie soundtracks and hip-hop then dub. The influence of Portishead is probably more in the vocal dubstep like Darkstar and some of the Various tracks.

seckle wrote:

Ewah wrote:Didn't Wookie work out of Jazzie B's office which was why he could rework Fairplay and all those other tunes?

Ewah, correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't his office "The Africa Centre"?

I always assumed that was just the club but there might have been an office there too. I think Jazzie's based out in south London now.

Anyone heard the bootlegs from the Wild Bunch (early Massive Attack) new years eve party where Mushroom's MCing going 'this is one of our new ones... what's it called again D?' And it's Unfinished Sympathy. That story might have got a bit jumbled in the brain there. But it's something like that.

jred wrote:anyone remember "lost" tecno bizo kinda swingy (steve bicknill or something like that) ,not to far different from alot dubstep these day

Sorry if I'm quoting on everything today but Lost's an interesting paralell - at least because Maurizio/Basic Channel once did a live set there behind a black sheet inna Magnetic Man stylee (or vice versa, probably). They didn't even announce it though, so most people passed blissfully unaware that they'd even witnessed a techno rarity...

[/quote]Yeah he had his own room there. They mixed the album through a Neve Vr Legend Desk with a proper mix engineer. Which is why that album sounds so warm when compared to 99% of the stuff that was coming out around 1999/2000.[/quote]

I love a good nerd fact. Thank you! I found an old Wookie promo CD when I moved house this weekend... some gems on there.

Last one from me, I promise because this is surely the internet equivalent of talking to the wall, but really who influenced who's a moot point. It all comes from soundsystem culture in one way or another, it all comes from people loving something and then doing their own wrong version of it using whatever they've got to hand, and you can't retrospectively draw lines of connection. Making sense of things from this vantage point only gives you a bit of the truth.

Over and out.

Ewah wrote:

jred wrote:anyone remember "lost" tecno bizo kinda swingy (steve bicknill or something like that) ,not to far different from alot dubstep these day

Sorry if I'm quoting on everything today but Lost's an interesting paralell - at least because Maurizio/Basic Channel once did a live set there behind a black sheet inna Magnetic Man stylee (or vice versa, probably). They didn't even announce it though, so most people passed blissfully unaware that they'd even witnessed a techno rarity...

Haha I love that story

First time I interviewed Hatcha he namechecked Lost (the club, rather than Bicknell's recording name which Jred is talking about) as an example of no-frills underground clubbing and as such an influence on his style.

wookie was my point of entry into the uk garage sound (the tune 'battle' in particular), so the argument that a connection runs from soul II soul to dubstep through wookie is very appealing. timbaland r&b meets jungle bass at ny garage tempo is obviously a very potent fusion, but i think the case for a soul II soul link is interesting because it recognizes a spiritual connection to lovers' rock, and is a reminder of the deep jamaican roots of urban london.

Joe Muggs wrote:

Ewah wrote:

jred wrote:anyone remember "lost" tecno bizo kinda swingy (steve bicknill or something like that) ,not to far different from alot dubstep these day

Sorry if I'm quoting on everything today but Lost's an interesting paralell - at least because Maurizio/Basic Channel once did a live set there behind a black sheet inna Magnetic Man stylee (or vice versa, probably). They didn't even announce it though, so most people passed blissfully unaware that they'd even witnessed a techno rarity...

Haha I love that story

First time I interviewed Hatcha he namechecked Lost (the club, rather than Bicknell's recording name which Jred is talking about) as an example of no-frills underground clubbing and as such an influence on his style.

interesting ,did bicknell have anything to do with the club i thought he did

There's definitely a strong link to techno with the Big Apple boys. Arthur (Artwork, Menta) used to make techno as Grain on Fat Cat records, hence tunes like Basic G. Benny Ill recorded for Harthouse. Big Apple shop was always full of dusty house and techno classics.

but i still think there's a lot of revisionism going on here. just because two sounds now seem to have sonic similarities, doesnt mean there's any cause/effect link between them, as nice as it would be for there to be one. you need to go back to those early interviews and actually see what they were influenced by.