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Do you think that the far reaching alternative/conscious/forward/progressive community on this planet is influential, credible and stable enough to cause an international seed change and a shift in the current global power structure? Are we not now at a crossroads where there have never been so many people switched on to the possibility of a true mental evolution that this might be the best chance we ever have to act on our beliefs and put some real faith in the feelings of those around us before we disappear down the wrong path - of apathy, indifference & isolation resulting in a generic and meaningless existence.

By this I mean a dissolving of the artificial and nationally defined social/mental/territorial boundaries that rely on outdated, untrusted and forced organizational systems (religion, bi-lateral politics and the many derivative shards of population control methods). If we all played the democracy game to the letter but on a global scale could we "by mass-proportional mass-representation" gain a majority voice and transform the whole world into a fair, just, manageable and sustainable super-community?

If so how would we bring about this change and organize ourselves to bring it into effect a multilaterally conceived yet unilaterally effective and active global collective? The internet may soon become a very different place and there may not be another chance to interface with so many other like-minded people in such a free and open manner.

I understand if you initially reject this as over optimistic and somewhat naive but please first ask yourself: "why do I reject it? what is it that's stopping me from believing in the possibility of such a change?" Then ask yourself: “what is the alternative to this proposal?”

Or natural environment is never static or still, one way or another it is constantly changing for better or worse. That change is most apparent to the those who are well informed, clear minded, awakened and therefore best equipped to deal with it and to the conditions that emerge.

Feel free to add you thoughts, as this is just one of mine. I welcome your opinions, criticism and queries via reply or PM. Also please post this text anywhere you feel it would have a positive effect.

P.S. Does anyone know of how to create a "live reactive" thread that could be posted on many forums around the world and would update itself with the replies posted from any forum and translate them to any language, like a fully integrated nervous system for information? Also, any ideas on how something like this could be managed or moderated would be much appreciated.

tldr.

but here's a funny picture

lol @ that picture type/emaily thing

I'm not entirely sure as to what level of action we can take at this stage. Too many people are still in the dark about the situation. The media keeps a heavy boundary as to what people are told to believe, filtering through this kind of free thinking to an acceptable level. An example would be the common trend to single out multinational corporations as the death incarnate. Of course this is true to a point, but it keeps people from looking at the bigger picture. The people who own the money. The large banking families of the Rothschilds and the Morgans, the people that give the government money at interest so they will forever be in debt. The own it all. They control our lives, like it or not. And people need to know that before they can act.

i had a satsuma this morning

Diss04 wrote:lol @ that picture type/emaily thing

There were only three days last year that there was 100% no fighting or wars, the rest of the year had at least two countries shooting each other.


Do you still think we are ready for a new world order, one world goverment, globalization?

Globalization is bad, a flawed theory and worse in practise.

Simple answer...no.

What worries me about this kind of thinking is that it sounds dangerously close to the New World Order ideals, one government, everybody living under one set of beliefs?

And what do you do with people who are not "enlightened" to use your terminology? Just sit them down a persuade them to think differently? You think that this is possible? When prejudices have been cultivated, allowed to fester until the hatred becomes so deeply imbedded that it is considered the word of God.

Tbh I find you assumptions that you and like minded people are enlightened or awakened or whatever phrase you want to use to effectively claim your superiority to others, so arrogant that it is offensive.


Thankfully my anger was quickly wiped away by that brilliant spider email conversation posted in reply. Thanks neka.

Absolutely mean no offense. People can believe what they want, its part of being human. Many people think we're burning in hell. Some believe in Thetans. I believe that some people control things they shouldn't and that people should know about it. But in no way do I think that I'm better than anyone else as that ideal is principle to my personal philosophy.

Good to see peoples thoughts on this, however dismissive/comedic (that spider email really was some funny shit, thanks neka - I do need to laugh more and take things a bit less serious!). Even if you respond negatively you have responded so I must have your attention in some way, even if you just think I'm a tit for sticking my neck out and writing what some of you may feel is borderline scientology and one world order manifesto crap. But that's not it, I'm far from an advocate of that way of thinking.

I did not state that the proposal was something I personally agreed with or favoured which is why I also asked “what is the alternative to this proposal?”, I just wanted to put it out there to see what peoples thoughts were.

eLBe, I understand what you mean about the use of my terminology. It may be true to say that the possibility of such an awareness is outside the reach of those uneducated in dealing with concepts like this, but is that not simply more proof of the imposed levels of ignorance mankind is currently suffering from? If your mind isn't switched on to this stuff at a very early age you may never be able to think in such a way, this is the fault of the socially and racially biased education system that exists throughout the western world. I mean no disrespect to those who can't comprehend the things I'm saying here and I should make a greater effort to explain myself in Layman's terms. My argument however, would be that in our current state of existence it is becoming more and more acceptable to live almost in an Animalistic state, fulfilling all the sense cravings of the body and to allow the individual mind to be placated through an extremely pervasive media system which dictates the definition of what those "Laymans terms" are, therefore precluding those under it's influence from ever breaking free of the mental shackles imposed over them and protecting itself Ipso Facto.

I wish the world was still in it's original and initial diverse state with many ecosystems functioning evenly, individually and freely creating the myriad of beautiful and interesting lifeforms we see around us today - but the fact is a process of awakening has begun (or maybe it has always been developing - it's just at a more developed state right now) and you can't rewind, pause or stop that process (resources are being used up, animals and plants are becoming extinct, human languages and cultures are dying out) - so instead of watching the whole world fold into a one bland and formless biosphere initiated by the effects global capitalism and the corporations (which exemplify and magnify the very worst elements of the human psyche - fear, greed, gluttony, jealousy, envy & conceit) I ask is there an alternative route to an inevitable state, or can we just keep on bumbling along hoping that things will continue to diversify yet stay balanced and stable?

I hope for the latter yet I fear the former will be the case. Maybe it's that inbuilt fear that keeps us diversifying and stops us from ever reaching "that perfect state" which to many is death, finality and non-existence, and has been exemplified in modern times by the appearance of inhuman megalomaniacs and the destructive dictatorships that arise from them. But in other cultures death means change, rebirth and transcendence to another form of reality; this is what I'm interested in.

I'm all too aware that most nation's governments spend more time and energy trying to control their own people than attacking any others (which is why you should realize that most wars are staged and preconceived methods of controlling the population, the flow of resources and the exposure to technology), but is that not just a basic human trait magnified into what we now call society at large? To be concerned with yourself and not give thought to anything else - to be inevitably singular?

You could be right eLBe, maybe it's for the best most people can't, don't or won't think this way. It's just that I can't help but think some people do, and unlike myself their intentions are not be inquisitive, ponderous or simply to query that which is taken for granted - but rather to maintain a false feeling of superiority through control and subjugation of all they see around them by disassociating themselves from their imperfect and flawed natural human origins.

And no Sir, I do not consider myself better than anyone else (because I know myself: I am me and no one else is better at being me than me - same goes for everyone else too right?). If anything it it a curse to have these thoughts on my mind, yeah-yeah I hear the violins playing but I just wanted to speak on it so that I could reassure myself I wasn't going mad and see what other peoples opinions were. There is indeed a thin line between Enlightenment & Fear it would seem - but it's now up to us to define it.

My sig. now seems highly ironic. Well at least I finished on a joke...

Questioner: How can we be free of dependence as long as we are living in society?
Krishnamurti: Do you know what society is? Society is the relationship between man and man, is it not? Don't complicate it, don't quote a lot of books; think very simply about it and you will see that society is the relationship between you and me and others. Human relationship makes society; and our present society is built upon a relationship of acquisitiveness, is it not? Most of us want money, power, property, authority; at one level or another we want position, prestige, and so we have built an acquisitive society. As long as we are acquisitive, as long as we want position, prestige, power and all the rest of it, we belong to this society and are therefore dependent on it. But if one does not want any of these things and remains simply what one is with great humility, then one is out of it; one revolts against it and breaks with this society.

Unfortunately, education at present is aimed at making you conform, fit into and adjust yourself to this acquisitive society. That is all your parents, your teachers and your books are concerned with. As long as you conform, as long as you are ambitious, acquisitive, corrupting and destroying others in the pursuit of position and power, you are considered a respectable citizen. You are educated to fit into society; but that is not education, it is merely a process which conditions you to conform to a pattern. The real function of education is not to turn you out to be a clerk, or a judge, or a prime minister, but to help you understand the whole structure of this rotten society and allow you to grow in freedom, so that you will break away and create a different society, a new world. There must be those who are in revolt, not partially but totally in revolt against the old, for it is only such people who can create a new world--a world not based on acquisitiveness, on power and prestige.
I can hear the older people saying, "It can never be done. Human nature is what it is, and you are talking nonsense". But we have never thought about unconditioning the adult mind, and not conditioning the child. Surely education is both curative and preventive. You older students are already shaped, already conditioned, already ambitious; you want to be successful like your father, like the governor, or somebody else. So the real function of education is not only to help you uncondition yourself, but also to understand this whole process of living from day to day so that you can grow in freedom and create a new world--a world that must be totally different from the present one. Unfortunately, neither your parents, nor your teachers, nor the public in general are interested in this. That is why education must be a process of educating the educator as well as the student.

Sqwol/Krishnamurti wrote: Unfortunately, education at present is aimed at making you conform, fit into and adjust yourself to this acquisitive society. That is all your parents, your teachers and your books are concerned with.

BIG generalization. What the damaged might want to believe.

same wrote: As long as you conform, as long as you are ambitious, acquisitive, corrupting and destroying others in the pursuit of position and power, you are considered a respectable citizen.

Which ninja personally believes that they are "respectable" on this basis? One of Krish's less edifying takes imo.

In answer to you, BeesTing:

BeesTing wrote: (because I know myself: I am me and no one else is better at being me than me - same goes for everyone else too right?)...I just wanted to speak on it so that I could reassure myself I wasn't going mad and see what other peoples opinions were.

I fully agree with you first part of this paragraph, and commend the second, it is good to have these discussions and I only hope to highlight what I would consider to be the flaws in your way of thinking.

BeesTing wrote: And no Sir, I do not consider myself better than anyone else

I wish this was true but consider your other words:

BeesTing wrote: ...the possibility of such an awareness is outside the reach of those uneducated in dealing with concepts like this, but is that not simply more proof of the imposed levels of ignorance mankind is currently suffering from?...... I mean no disrespect to those who can't comprehend the things I'm saying here and I should make a greater effort to explain myself in Layman's terms.

Your specific language here betrays your sense of superiority. You feel that your way of thinking is on a higher level to those that do not think the same way as you, I understand what you are trying to put across, I do not need you to dumb it down to layman’s, I still disagree.

BeesTing wrote: instead of watching the whole world fold into a one bland and formless biosphere initiated by the effects global capitalism and the corporations (which exemplify and magnify the very worst elements of the human psyche - fear, greed, gluttony, jealousy, envy & conceit) I ask is there an alternative route to an inevitable state, or can we just keep on bumbling along hoping that things will continue to diversify yet stay balanced and stable?

I understand this fear and it is something we need to be aware of, however I do not feel that this globalisation is inevitable. Why should it be? I feel my individuality, I choose the path I walk, sure I feel the pressures of the modern world and to some extent they guide me but this is nothing new, the pressure of our lives have always influenced how we live, these pressure change and evolve as we change and evolve.

BeesTing wrote: My argument however, would be that in our current state of existence it is becoming more and more acceptable to live almost in an Animalistic state, fulfilling all the sense cravings of the body and to allow the individual mind to be placated

This suggest you feel that your mind and body are separate and pulling in different directions. I consider myself as a whole made of several parts, without all parts I would not be. Does this make sense? Each part of me is of equal importance and value, each part is reaching for the same goal.

I feel we are digressing from the original point. Your ideas of a global society, where we work together towards a better future, are admirable but it would only work if everybody felt the same. This effectively would mean a loss of our individuality. It would mean we would all have to agree, on everything. This sounds dull and impossible, Sqwol take notice. Impossible because it is not human, I am not talking about our social conditioning here; individually we have separate ideas of value. To take a base example; I find brunettes more attractive than blondes. This is not social conditioning this is personal preference. These personal preferences extend to all decisions I make, that is what makes me, me. This is what I would have to give up, what everyone would have to give up, to make this utopia you talk about work.

I have deliberately not commented on many of your points because this is long enough as it is. I also want to stay on subject though suffice to say that I had to stop myself branching off into a whole other argument at several points

@ Sqwol, I do not know what your education was like but as I progressed through mine it taught me more and more to question society and the views that I had, it encouraged me to think freely, and not to accept things as they are.

Sqwol wrote: Unfortunately, education at present is aimed at making you conform, fit into and adjust yourself to this acquisitive society. That is all your parents, your teachers and your books are concerned with.

Your language is provocative, it makes me want to ask what is so special about you, how did you come across this idea, was it not taught to you by someone else?

Sqwol wrote:But we have never thought about unconditioning the adult mind, and not conditioning the child.

Yes, yes we have, it has been a question of debate for a long time. Conditioning occurs naturally, your only option not to condition a young mind is to lock them in a cell and remove them from any interaction with any form of life.

I agree that many aspects of life are influenced by our society, that it pushes us in certain directions, but we all have the ability to question it and to decide to act in another way. We are not mindless zombies trapped in a society that we all want to get out of. This society of acquisition is not new; it has been with us from our ancestors first steps on this earth, the items we desire have simply changed.

Pwnd

But the spider is jokes tho init

^^^Yu fuckin' nailed it eLBe.
I am annoyed by the "enlightened ones"
who think they know better ( however well disguised)

I have to watch for this tendency in my own personality by regularly reminding myself that I'm a pretentious idiot with limited knowledge of reality.

If it wasn't clear, i just copied and pasted a passage from one of Krishnamurti's lectures that i felt was on topic. Yes it can be picked apart, what cannot?

A really tight and annoying knot.

Ok.