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Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:39 pm
by dj.ik
terekete wrote:only problem w/ layering kicks is that, at low frequencies, phase really makes a difference. zoom in and make sure your samples' waveforms are all going up and down at the same time-- or close. otherwise adding in a sample can actually reduce the power of something.
Break the sound down and visualise. in a kick, you've got the absolute bottom tone, the midrange knock, and the high-end attack. so you've got stuff around 40-100hz or so (depending on the sound), something in the 200-500range, and then something up in the 1-3k range. not a ton else. accentuate what's working w/ eq and get rid of everything that isnt. take a really full sounding kick sample and cut out 12db at 250hz or so--you'd be amazed at how little you miss that sometimes. the more efficient the sound, the more powerful.
for that "punch," compression w/ slow attack, fast release (maybe so fast it distorts), and a high ratio can do it. you might loose a ton of the tone of the drum so either copy the channel and do it as a mult, or use a compression plug in that lets you dial in a mix (ie, in parallel).
saturation can bring out the tone; limiting will increase RMS and power, but at the expense of 'punch'.
or just take some massive psytrance douchekick and layer it in there.
With this kinda explanation, it seems like I touched on the subject too lightly....if I'd thought about it like this, I might not of experienced so much 'trial and error'
Nice one, hit the nail on the head.
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:41 pm
by gravity
envelopes. particularly volume and filter envelopes (resonant highpass filters are very useful), maybe a touch of distortion.
Re: Re:
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:22 am
by vivace
scooterjack wrote:vivace wrote:maybe this helps.. it's (approx) my take on things.. but that's just me.. ::
- limiter, around -20dB, small attack, slightly bigger release
- compressor, -70 threshold, ratio 1:6 to 1:9
- render
- EQ, boost 110-140Hz, kill that freq band in your bass, boost 900-1200Hz
talk about completely destroying your transients....
That's what punch IS, lack of dynamics
Re: Re:
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:57 pm
by gravity
vivace wrote:scooterjack wrote:vivace wrote:maybe this helps.. it's (approx) my take on things.. but that's just me.. ::
- limiter, around -20dB, small attack, slightly bigger release
- compressor, -70 threshold, ratio 1:6 to 1:9
- render
- EQ, boost 110-140Hz, kill that freq band in your bass, boost 900-1200Hz
talk about completely destroying your transients....
That's what punch IS, lack of dynamics
no surely punch is the exact opposite of that...?
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:05 pm
by Sharmaji
yeah... punch is the presence of a lot of attack. that's the knock that hits you in the chest in a kick.
lack of dynamics is an aspect of weight at the bottom of the register-- all RMS power. you can definitely have a layer of this in a good punchy kick sound, but a kick that's super-limited usually winds up really present and loud-- but not with a ton of impact.
Re: Re:
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:07 pm
by scooterjack
vivace wrote:scooterjack wrote:vivace wrote:maybe this helps.. it's (approx) my take on things.. but that's just me.. ::
- limiter, around -20dB, small attack, slightly bigger release
- compressor, -70 threshold, ratio 1:6 to 1:9
- render
- EQ, boost 110-140Hz, kill that freq band in your bass, boost 900-1200Hz
talk about completely destroying your transients....
That's what punch IS, lack of dynamics
no, you're completely and totally wrong
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:58 pm
by sesshin
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:14 pm
by youthful_implants
Just sample a kick from a tune you like which is heavy enough.
Use that, job done.
Otherwise layering kicks works fine long as you seperate them using EQ so they don't phase, clicks in the top end work well and proper 808/909 bass drums work well for the lower imo.
Waves plug-in Rbass is really nice for boosting the intensity of frequencies in the low end, without over saturating or losing dynamics.
Re:
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:00 pm
by tripaddict
future one wrote:Find find punchy samples to begin with is the best way.
agreed
.... n side chain if your bass fucks with your sample
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:37 pm
by ninjadog
I have gone thru the same sort of thing and just end up with a muddy shit kick...Because frankly I am also just doing what people recommend on the net.
I have found the best kicks (or any sample really) come from commercial sample packs. Just let someone else do the hard work for you untill you have the time and patience to figure out what actually needs to be done.
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:32 pm
by mekha
Use a bassy kick, and low pass it, then find a middle kick and band pass it, now do the same with a high passed kick with a good high-click. If all these kicks gel, just route' em to a bus and use a compressor to make it gel even more, start by adjusting the treshold til' the compressor start kicking and then adjust the attack and release to your taste. Once you got this workign you can tweak the filters on your 3 layered kicks to add a bit of extra power.
Use a bit crusher with a very dry mix if you want some extra thumping. Eq where you want emphasis.
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:48 pm
by crytek
dj.ik wrote:terekete wrote:only problem w/ layering kicks is that, at low frequencies, phase really makes a difference. zoom in and make sure your samples' waveforms are all going up and down at the same time-- or close. otherwise adding in a sample can actually reduce the power of something.
Break the sound down and visualise. in a kick, you've got the absolute bottom tone, the midrange knock, and the high-end attack. so you've got stuff around 40-100hz or so (depending on the sound), something in the 200-500range, and then something up in the 1-3k range. not a ton else. accentuate what's working w/ eq and get rid of everything that isnt. take a really full sounding kick sample and cut out 12db at 250hz or so--you'd be amazed at how little you miss that sometimes. the more efficient the sound, the more powerful.
for that "punch," compression w/ slow attack, fast release (maybe so fast it distorts), and a high ratio can do it. you might loose a ton of the tone of the drum so either copy the channel and do it as a mult, or use a compression plug in that lets you dial in a mix (ie, in parallel).
saturation can bring out the tone; limiting will increase RMS and power, but at the expense of 'punch'.
or just take some massive psytrance douchekick and layer it in there.
With this kinda explanation, it seems like I touched on the subject too lightly....if I'd thought about it like this, I might not of experienced so much 'trial and error'
Nice one, hit the nail on the head.
I'm actually now adopting this way of thinking. Just breaking down the sounds I hear. Don't know why I haven't done so before.
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:56 am
by nowaysj
I don't always do this, but if I'm really working on something, I will synthesize the kick. Three oscs plus a noise osc, and about four envelopes should do u nicely. ie, any modern workhorse synth - Massive, Zeta, Moog modular, and a grip of others.
I can't sample drums out of tracks, I don't know why - my sampled drums always sound quiet. I've never understood how people get pounding drums this way. Advice welcome.
If you listen to kicks that you think punch, listen to what is sounding at the same time, usually very little, either through writing other lines around the kick, or through sidechaining as has been mentioned.
Whats a good compressor to use on kicks?
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:37 am
by nowaysj
Forgot to mention this, I've been working with some loops lately, rare for me, and I've been using gates for the first time in a long while. Gates can really increase your punch, and just tighten the f' out of your track.
Just saw this:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-vault/417202-comparing-compressors-drums.html
I can't always hear the difference, except in the extreme settings/cases but still.
Re:
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:35 am
by naroja
scooterjack wrote:If none of the above works for you (although it should)
get a friend with a good boom mic and portable recorder to go with you as you find the nearest policeman. Then you proceed to slap said cop and your friend should get some really good THUMPIN samples of the cop beatin on you.
nothing says punchy kick, like a good boot to the gut from an overweight, disgruntled, roidrage having cop
Lol, nice technique, I've heard this type of kick before, very punchy. If your lucky you get some cracked snares in there too.
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:40 am
by Brisance
good compressor, long attack, tresh and ratio to taste...
In other words... Learn to compress.
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:01 am
by nowaysj
Anti punch here, but I've been using extremely quick attack times, ~.4ms and shorter if I can, to tame just peaks. How much dynamic range do you need in a kick or snare to keep it punchy, but still keep it from blowing the roof off your meters?
Re: Re:
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:38 am
by vivace
scooterjack wrote:vivace wrote:scooterjack wrote:
talk about completely destroying your transients....
That's what punch IS, lack of dynamics
no, you're completely and totally wrong
LOL good luck with your punch then
Re: Adding that extra "punch" to kickdrums
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:59 am
by silkpantsman
peep this tutorial it really helped me...
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-va ... ssion.html thanks to DEQUO...lots of other nice tips in that vid post aswell
