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i don't know why i'm bothering arguing because essentially it's a marketing term to convince people that they aren't being childish by reading comics (which of course they aren't) but at the same time there are definite difference between some of the books called graphic novels and comic books. a comic that's serialised has certain limitations due to it's format because only so much can be printed each week and it can't be read as a whole unless it gets compiled at a later date, so i'd say that it's fair to say that a graphic novel (in the sense of a book that's only ever printed in one go) is very different because it can explore things in a very different way

a better example than the crime book one is that there is a literary distinction between other forms of literary prose and the novel. other works of writing existed before the novel but a novel is distinct because of the way it is written, in much the same way that a more narrative based comic book is different from say the beano or your average marvel comic book. the term graphic novel has all those negative connotations to it but the "novel" part of the description is the important part as it makes a distinction in the writing styles

symmetricalsounds wrote:also i wouldn't dismiss any super-hero based comic for not having any "real" content. checkout kingdom come, you might be surprised.

i wasn't meaning that in a dismissive way at all. i've heard good things about it so will check it out sometime

anyway im looking for something arty farty... gonna get that maus one soonish but anyone got ideas?

Didnt really rate watchmen too much tbh (blasphemy etc. etc.)

badger wrote:there are definite difference between some of the books called graphic novels and comic books.

key focus

its not a huge deal, but people that are adamant on calling it a graphic novel just to seem more sophisticated is a bit silly to say the least

(and usually thats what tends to be the reason)

maybe its just the way it rolls off the tounge

graphic novel

i dono, comic book sounds cooler anyway, cant help but hear the words graphic novel in a really posh accent like look at me, i like art, and caviarrr

caveeyaaaaahhhh

crackf wrote:its not a huge deal, but people that are adamant on calling it a graphic novel just to seem more sophisticated is a bit silly to say the least

(and usually thats what tends to be the reason)

yeah agreed

danrev wrote:anyway im looking for something arty farty... gonna get that maus one soonish but anyone got ideas?

Didnt really rate watchmen too much tbh (blasphemy etc. etc.)

i wasn't all that impressed by it either tbh. some of the super hero comics are good (iron man for instance was great because it didn't rely on super powers and it was one of the first "super hero with flaws" comics - having a paralysed and alcoholic super hero was a great touch), but they lack a certain edge to really interest me. comics are good for a quick bit of satisfaction in the same way some trashy books are an entertaining read at the time but not something you'd ever want to go back to

i mentioned the cerebus series to dubloke and i really enjoyed them. only got the first four and the first one isn't great because dave sims is still finding his feet with the character a bit but the two church and state books are great pieces of satire and genuinely funny in parts

i'll start reading from hell and let you know if it's any good but it's alan moore so i can't see it being bad. apparently he did loads of research on it before writing so it should be interesting

All volumes are good. Best graphic novel imo.

Also

Sandman and Transmetropolitan are my two favorites. The 9th Sandman volume brought me to tears. Other good ones:
Black Hole
Orbiter (same author as Transmetropolitan)
Can't Get No (more like an illustrated epic poem than a graphic novel)
Y: The Last Man
Pride of Baghdad
Ex Machina
Marvel: Civil War (I've hated Iron Man ever since reading this)
V For Vendetta
Bone
Persepolis

Get the Books of Magic 4-part miniseries. One of the most beautiful books I've seen.

I've recently picked up Dave McKean's Cages. Not read it yet but the art is amazing from flicking through.

Next time you pass through London, go visit Gosh. It's opposite the British Museum. Oodles of stuff to look at. Staff are quite friendly so you can probably ask them for recommendations too.

Just like in dubstep, graphic novels cover a vast gamut of stuff, to me the two main distinctions being collections of serialised comics, and single-issue story volumes. Most frequently they are used to refer to collections of serialised comics, which itself can range from trashy superheroics to high-end storytelling. I would prefer to use the term graphic novel for new single-shot storytelling devices as opposed to the collections. After all, that's generally what "novel" refers to in this context.

im trying not to mention anything that has been said, and there are some great ones already mentioned.

ripple (Weasel)
suckle
crumple
larry & dan
fables
stray bullets
frank (anything really by jim woodring)
sleeper
crossed
the incal (jodorowsky & moebius together)
casanova
grant morrison's doom patrol
grant morrison's x-men
grant morrison's batman
pretty much anything grant morrison especially the invisibles
alan moore's swampthing
planetary
wormwood
black summer
dmz


that should get ya started

All of the Judge Dredd Case Files ->

this is my favourite one i've read so far. the artwork is incredible!

this ones good too, bit weird though...

-dubson- wrote:

Only read the first book of this but its sick.

YES.

Best thing I've read in ages. Only about the 3rd/4th book now. They're coming out with a film for it soon as well.

symmetricalsounds wrote:sandman series, neil gaiman or dave mckean being involved in something is usually a good sign.

also +1 on the whole thing of graphic novels being a middle class way of saying you're into comics.

badger wrote:bone by jeff smith is amazing. it's fucking massive but a really good read, it's kind of lord of the rings-esque but with little bone creatures

maus is a really good read about izan germany during the war. complete with jews as mice and sizan as cats. deals with the issues at hand really well

if you like satire then the cerebus series by dave sims is great. it follows an aardvark as he progresses through society

for authors anything by alan moore is good, and frank miller too (who did sin city). sin city is a bit too OTT in it's noire aspects for me but it's artistically stunning

been thinking recently that i should get back into graphic novels, and reading in general. don't do nearly enough of it these days

Bought Maus based on your recommendation and some reviews and I am loving it so far... was a little put off by the characters being animals at first but it works so well!

nicenice wrote: Best thing I've read in ages. Only about the 3rd/4th book now. They're coming out with a film for it soon as well.

Don't hold your breathe on that - they've been mentioning a Preacher film since like 1998.



V For Vendetta is shit hot, as is 300. Someone has already mentioned Killing Joke, you should also check Arkham Asylum - Sane House on Insane Earth (or something like that), that's good too.

thanks for all the suggestions!! are most of the things mentioned pretty dark?

dubloke wrote:thanks for all the suggestions!! are most of the things mentioned pretty dark?

No more or less so than Watchman in terms of dark-ness.