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svpreme wrote:One needs to look no further than the Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina to see just how things would go down in America if shit were to hit the fan for whatever reason:

You based your opinion on something wrote on Wiki. Quite.

svpreme wrote:One needs to look no further than the Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina to see just how things would go down in America if shit were to hit the fan for whatever reason:

Incapacitated by the breakdown of transportation and communication, as well as overwhelmed in terms of numbers, police officers could do little to stop crime, and shopkeepers who remained behind were left to defend their property alone.[42] Looters included gangs of armed gunmen,[citation needed] and gunfire was heard in parts of the city. Along with violent, armed robbery of non-essential valuable goods,[citation needed] many incidents were of residents simply taking food, water, and other commodities from unstaffed grocery stores.[citation needed] There were also reports of some police officers looting.[43] Significant looting continued in areas of the city with few, if any permanent residents, such as the Lakeview, Gentilly, and the Midcity regions.[44]

"Sniper fire" was also reported throughout the city, targeted at rescue helicopters, relief workers, and police officers. One of the possible causes of the sniper fire was resistance to relocation or evacuation.[45] One report of violence involved police killing two people on the Danziger Bridge, which carries the Chef Menteur Highway across the industrial canal, who were unarmed and whose homicides were later found to have been covered up by the New Orleans police who planted a gun and fabricated a story about being under fire [46]

...but yeah, I bet this entire situation would have been COMPLETELY civil for EVERYONE involved were it not for the presence of guns. All those rapes and shit DEFINITELY wouldn't have gone down, because, gosh darn it, humanity's moral character under crisis is just that strong. It was all teh gunz. :'|

Kumbaya, bro. Kumbaya.

to be fair... thats not a big change from the normal new orleans

jokes

firky wrote:

svpreme wrote:

noam wrote:the culture of inbred and ingrained violence in society

Ah, yes, because, you know, this is definitely...DEFINITELY something that humanity can and will overcome, and is only a problem in the US, anyway. ^______^

I want some of what you're smoking.

American society has an epidemic of violence, you treat your criminals with violence, you practice state sanctioned murder in some prisons. Your pigs carry guns, your security guards carry guns. Violence breeds violence. America is a very violent society - how many acts of violence are there in any given hour on TV in America?

It's not having a go at America to say it is an inherently violent society much more so than any other developed country.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with that, I just think operating under the assumption that everyone else does or can be persuaded to respect the sanctity of human life based on some ridiculous collective ideal of "peace" that we all harbor d33p down inside is deluded. There's no overcoming violence, plain and simple. Noam is straight up retarded if he thinks this is possible, or that it could somehow be stemmed significantly with gun control. You can't criticize people for taking the actions they need to in order to live with their reality.

Human nature is what is to blame, not guns. Humanity under crisis, with the threat of legal recourse being taken out of the picture, is particularly capable of anything.

firky wrote:

svpreme wrote:

noam wrote:the culture of inbred and ingrained violence in society

Ah, yes, because, you know, this is definitely...DEFINITELY something that humanity can and will overcome, and is only a problem in the US, anyway. ^______^

I want some of what you're smoking.

American society has an epidemic of violence, you treat your criminals with violence, you practice state sanctioned murder in some prisons. Your pigs carry guns, your security guards carry guns. Violence breeds violence. America is a very violent society - how many acts of violence are there in any given hour on TV in America?

It's not having a go at America to say it is an inherently violent society much more so than any other developed country.

Except that whole thing where there has been no link proven between visual media and actual violence

So, for the record, let me ask the anti-gun people this, do you prefer that the Virginia Tech shooting worked out the way it did, or would you prefer if someone who was armed had stopped him before he killed 30 people?

How about the following situation, in which the shooter was literally only stopped because a security guard on the premises was armed? How do you guys think this situation could have been resolved without shooting? Skip to 4:00 and onwards if you're impatient.



I bet those school board members could have just made puppy dog eyes at the shooter and got him to leave, or maybe they could have formed a drum circle of some sort. Fuckin' senseless violence, bro. :'|

svpreme wrote:So, for the record, let me ask the anti-gun people this, do you prefer that the Virginia Tech shooting worked out the way it did, or would you prefer if someone who was armed had stopped him before he killed 30 people?

How about the following situation, in which the shooter was literally only stopped because a security guard on the premises was armed? How do you guys think this situation could have been resolved without shooting? Skip to 4:00 and onwards if you're impatient.



I bet those school board members could have just made puppy dog eyes at the shooter and got him to leave, or maybe they could have formed a drum circle of some sort. Fuckin' senseless violence, bro. :'|

I think people think HE shouldn't even have a gun either. <.<

Genevieve wrote:

svpreme wrote:So, for the record, let me ask the anti-gun people this, do you prefer that the Virginia Tech shooting worked out the way it did, or would you prefer if someone who was armed had stopped him before he killed 30 people?

How about the following situation, in which the shooter was literally only stopped because a security guard on the premises was armed? How do you guys think this situation could have been resolved without shooting? Skip to 4:00 and onwards if you're impatient.



I bet those school board members could have just made puppy dog eyes at the shooter and got him to leave, or maybe they could have formed a drum circle of some sort. Fuckin' senseless violence, bro. :'|

I think people think HE shouldn't even have a gun either. <.<

but if we can get heroin which is illegal, do you not think people who want guns will acquire them if they're outlawed?

I'm not saying thats a reason to keep it legal, just saying that outlawing things has little effect if there is a market.

Genevieve wrote:
I think people think HE shouldn't even have a gun either. <.<

The dude was a straight up ex con, I can't find a legit source to verify but it's HIGHLY unlikely that he obtained the gun he used legally.

I mean, I get what you were trying to say, but I know you agree that bad people will get their hands on guns regardless.

Guns are definitely PART of the problem, but taking them away from everyone apart from the police is by no means some kind of all-encompassing solution.

pkay wrote:but if we can get heroin which is illegal, do you not think people who want guns will acquire them if they're outlawed?

I'm not saying thats a reason to keep it legal, just saying that outlawing things has little effect if there is a market.

I wasn't stating my opinion (I'm too much of a fence sitter and I think the legaity of guns depends on the culture) and you've echoed something I've said earlier in this thread.

But for the sake of the argument. I think people would be much more likely to impulsively shoot someone than to impulsively do heroin.

svpreme wrote:The dude was a straight up ex con, I can't find a legit source to verify but it's HIGHLY unlikely that he obtained the gun he used legally.

I mean, I get what you were trying to say, but I know you agree that bad people will get their hands on guns regardless.

Guns are definitely PART of the problem, but taking them away from everyone apart from the police is by no means some kind of all-encompassing solution.

Don't you think that the legality of guns in the first place makes guns falling in the wrong heads too easy in the first place?

svpreme wrote:

noam wrote:the culture of inbred and ingrained violence in society

Ah, yes, because, you know, this is definitely...DEFINITELY something that humanity can and will overcome, and is only a problem in the US, anyway. ^______^

I want some of what you're smoking.

no mate

dont be so dismissive

in your previous post you made reference to this very thing

svpreme wrote:It's kind of best to own a gun in America, really...

when violent crime is a part of your reality to any extent. You don't understand because you don't live here. America is a violent place.

I mean, shit, there's one or more serial killers in Long Island right now that have taken like 8 lives or some shit.

you are BLIND TO THE WORLD if you think the rest of it is like America is concerning violence

there are only a few places more violent than LA/NY

in other parts of the world this problem is blamed on poverty, they're pretty much 3rd world problems (Bangkok/Mexico City/Sao Paolo/Rio etc.)

what would you say the problem in America is??

Pkay nailed it. Drugs and Gangs.

im not a fucking idiot, i never said you'd be able to get rid of violence. But thats the aim you go for, and everything you do with that in mind (hopefully) reduces the problem

its all very well sitting there going... 'well mate, that just isn't gona happen so you may aswell accept it and live with it'

too cynical a viewpoint, no one ever achieves anything with that viewpoint

you think at the start of the Slave trade there were Slaves who believed their ancestors would ever have the power to vote? would ever have the ability to change the country they live in?

if you give up before you even begin you never, ever win.

the type of mentality that institutionalises violence to the extent that certain cities in supposedly the leader of the free world have some of the highest homicide rates in that world, is exactly the one you're displaying. Its that I'm talking about.

A lot of the time it seems like some Americans seem to take some sort of pride in the fact their cities are violent... 'if you lived here you'd understand, you cant be a pussy' type attitude, same as the London attitude, its just silly

its so ingrained its like you cant see any way out of it so you accept it, and part of you embraces it because even though not directly, its a part of you...

i duno, just seems to me to be entirely sensible to advocate the reduction of the amount of guns available to the public.

combatting that idea with the problem of gangs, drugs and illegal gun-running to do with gangs and drugs is just moving the goal posts

Don't you all feel a bit like you're living in groundhog day discussing the same things time and time again?

http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=177964

Don't you think that drugs and gangs would mostly go away if drugs were legalized?

gun violence is only a symptom of a larger problem. Just like drug useage, prostitution, etc

If you treat the symptom the relief is only temporary as the underlying illness remains.

Outlawing guns would solve exactly nothing

Genevieve wrote:Don't you think that drugs and gangs would mostly go away if drugs were legalized?

no

because even if heroin was legalized in the US it would be cheaper and more potent from mexico. IE: One pill of oxycontin has a street value of about $40, one cap or bag of heroin which provides the same high costs about $5.

pkay wrote:gun violence is only a symptom of a larger problem. Just like drug useage, prostitution, etc

If you treat the symptom the relief is only temporary as the underlying illness remains.

Outlawing guns would solve exactly nothing

i agree with you on the first point

the second i disagree, simply for the fact that i think its a PART of the problem of gun culture, and that is having a society where guns are so much a part of everyday life, not just for people in gangs, but for everyone

pkay wrote:

Genevieve wrote:Don't you think that drugs and gangs would mostly go away if drugs were legalized?

no

because even if heroin was legalized in the US it would be cheaper and more potent from mexico. IE: One pill of oxycontin has a street value of about $40, one cap or bag of heroin which provides the same high costs about $5.

Cheaper, possibly. But I doubt it would be more potent. Legal sellers would compete with the dealers.

The impulse of an addict to buy from a dealer, driving the prices of black market heroin down would be something to consider, though. Even though people hate dealers.

noam wrote:in other parts of the world this problem is blamed on poverty, they're pretty much 3rd world problems (Bangkok/Mexico City/Sao Paolo/Rio etc.)

what would you say the problem in America is??

Pkay nailed it. Drugs and Gangs.

Drugs and Gangs are based in poverty. You have to realize that much of America is a 3rd world nation. 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 children live below the poverty line here in the US. The problem is economic in nature. MLK jr realized this and got shot for it (finally an actual conspiracy theory in this thread!).

noam wrote:

pkay wrote:gun violence is only a symptom of a larger problem. Just like drug useage, prostitution, etc

If you treat the symptom the relief is only temporary as the underlying illness remains.

Outlawing guns would solve exactly nothing

i agree with you on the first point

the second i disagree, simply for the fact that i think its a PART of the problem of gun culture, and that is having a society where guns are so much a part of everyday life, not just for people in gangs, but for everyone

Except it's not. It's not really a part of every day life unless you live in an area victimized by poverty and the drug trade.

People in the hood aren't reading guns and ammo magazine discussing the finer points of gun culture. They're carrying guns due to the hazards involved with the only profession that is always hiring in the inner city.

I can guarantee that gun crime would go down if our country had jobs to offer in impovrished areas.

Guns = Symptom