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I think trying to debate whether or not the attack was comitted by the people implicated by the media or not is irrelevant in terms of the various reactions to the attacks. If Bush wanted to invade Iraq because Sadam Hussein was a dictator he could have easily said so, but instead he claimed to do so because the country possessed weapons of mass destruction and was a threat to world peace, however the Iraq he has constructed is less safe in terms of world peace than it was before the invasion.
Afghanistan was different because there were less targets for foreign military attack than in Iraq anyway and it was somewhat related to the official spiel about the reasons behind the attacks. It is the general alternate reality that is projected by the media and particularily by the Bush administration that bothers me, not the urban legends and unprovabables details regarding something so clouded by bias in its coverage as the Kennedy assasination and all the other supposedly important events that appear to be or are conspiracies.

http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

and the 9// debunking here

http://skepdic.com/refuge/bunk27.html

So what do you believe?

obIwan wrote:I think trying to debate whether or not the attack was comitted by the people implicated by the media or not is irrelevant in terms of the various reactions to the attacks. If Bush wanted to invade Iraq because Sadam Hussein was a dictator he could have easily said so, but instead he claimed to do so because the country possessed weapons of mass destruction and was a threat to world peace, however the Iraq he has constructed is less safe in terms of world peace than it was before the invasion.

Well the thread' about 9/11 (mostly) so I thought I'd talk about 9/11. Bush would not have been able to make a case for war against Iraq if there was no way that he could have somehow linked it to 9/11 (which he tried by saying that Al-Quaeda was supported by Saddam - it wasn't, they hated each other). Under the threat of another mainland attack and the ruthless threat of undercover terrorists and dirty bombs being supported by dodgy arab dictators, it made it far easier for the US people to go along with him - if Saddam was supplying arms to terrorists to attack western targets, he was a threat to the homeland. Otherwise he would have just been another nasty tyrant, of little power and barely a threat to his neighbours let alone the US and thus public support would not have been behind him.

The reason Iraq is so fucked now is that they didn't do enough research before going in. They didn't realise quite how many different factions were kept down under Saddam that would be released once the dictator was removed. Yugoslavia under Tito was actually held together pretty well as a communist state, when he left was when ethnic rivalries and fighting kicked off.

obIwan wrote:So what do you believe?

I used to believe that there was something sneaky afoot. Then I looked at who was saying it and realised that in many cases logical thinking had gone out the window. Since then I've been trying to get an informed view on it rather than looking at pieces that fit what I want it to fit

Basically, if you're convinced it was a set-up, you'll look for all the evidence that points to a set-up. You'll also quite likely ignore anything that doesn't fit in with that view which ultimately leads to a biased opinion. If you then multiply that with all the people on the internet who are also doing lazy research and don't check their facts but provide it as gospel and you accept their take, add their discrepancies to your theory, then you end up with a hodge-podge of badly thought out reasoning based on supposition and half-truths.

I'm trying to keep it a bit more Spock and look at information that disagrees with my preconceptions to get a more balanced view.

anything can be "debunked"

did you read that archaeology article i posted that debunked the bosnian pyramids?

people pay good money for debunking

http://www.archaeology.org/online/featu ... index.html

http://www.archaeology.org/online/featu ... pdate.html

spot on Shonky!!

Shonky wrote: Basically, if you're convinced it was a set-up, you'll look for all the evidence that points to a set-up.

Basically you look at who stands to gain the most for anything happening. 9 times outta 8.

The truely scary thing is. Its not a 'conspiracy' in the way thats classiclly portrayed, no one has a finger on the button

chk a poem (oh no here we go) called 'no more stalins - no more hitlers' by W.S.B - its on the cd he did called 'dead city radio'

' death needs time like a junky needs junk '

Parson wrote: people pay good money for debunking

damn straight

& everyone is gettin paid and payin off to someone

Bob Crunkhouse wrote:

J_J wrote:its clearly a fucking inside job ...theres s MILLION fucking reasons why.
wake the fuck up !!!!!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...u wake the fuck up!!!!! or perhaps just post something with substance

ZZZZZZZ....fucking lame bastards..2001 people...was discussed..i hope...waste.

obIwan wrote:It is the general alternate reality that is projected by the media and particularily by the Bush administration that bothers me, not the urban legends and unprovabables details ....

great way of putting in man, 'general alternate reality' is right.

Shonky wrote: The reason Iraq is so fucked now is that they didn't do enough research before going in. They didn't realise quite how many different factions were kept down under Saddam that would be released once the dictator was removed.

mate........ u might could be right shonky but its a scary thought & would mean some serious short (& long) term memory losses

Parson wrote:death needs time to grow what it has to kill

doomstep wrote:

Shonky wrote: The reason Iraq is so fucked now is that they didn't do enough research before going in. They didn't realise quite how many different factions were kept down under Saddam that would be released once the dictator was removed.

mate........ u might could be right shonky but its a scary thought & would mean some serious short (& long) term memory losses

[/quote]

Not at all, just taking advice from the wrong people and using intelligence badly (note that the intelligence they used was in the same way that conspiracy gets misused - cherry pick the bits that sort your viewpoint). Also they were getting advice on conducting the peace from various shifty Iraqi business people who hadn't been in the country for 25 years in some instances

Parson wrote:anything can be "debunked"

Debunk the debunking in that Skepdic article on 9/11 then (he mentions in the comments that the truthout crew have accused him of being a mouthpiece for Fox news and the neo-cons).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... 06,00.html

And this one might give some needed perspective too

doomstep wrote:
Shonky wrote:

The reason Iraq is so fucked now is that they didn't do enough research before going in. They didn't realise quite how many different factions were kept down under Saddam that would be released once the dictator was removed.



mate........ u might could be right shonky but its a scary thought & would mean some serious short (& long) term memory losses





Get me. I think thats taking the US military machine for a bit more naive than it was about Iraq. Are you seriously telling me, Shonky, that with the resources of the CIA plus the "little reccy" they did in the 90's already under their belts they knew nothing about the antagonistic factions of Iraqi society, and their readiness to leap at each others throats as soon as their common enemy had gone. Come off it, they were already speculating about starting a coup against Sadaam with Kurdish forces, so they must have researched the history and different ethnic groups in the country. I know American leaders/officials can be ignorant about world Geography, but I think they knew enough to know that the Iraq they were going to form was more openly divided than the country under Sadaam.
"Dodgy sources" and whatnot were not the only means for the CIA/army/government to obtain information about the different religious groups and factions in Iraq.

J_J wrote:

Bob Crunkhouse wrote:

J_J wrote:its clearly a fucking inside job ...theres s MILLION fucking reasons why.
wake the fuck up !!!!!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...u wake the fuck up!!!!! or perhaps just post something with substance

ZZZZZZZ....fucking lame bastards..2001 people...was discussed..i hope...waste.

u wot???