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if it would help you get asleep tonight

soundquality is better IMO

I don't even understand what you just tried to say

Confusing me with broken sentences won't stop you from being wrong XD

The only reason any DAWs have a specific 'sound' is because of the native plug ins or the way the workflow forces your brain to think.

I'm pretty sure this has been proved by exporting tracks from two DAWs then lining the results up in another DAW and inverting the phase on one creating silence. Can't find the link at the moment but can someone back me up here?

EDIT: Also, even if I were wrong it's a mute point because no DAW is gonna change how your monitors react to sound. So you'd still produce identical mixes in any DAW if you were a skilled mixing engineer because if one had a detrimental dip at 5k you'd automatically put a boost there without even necessarily realising that was why you were doing it.

so buzz and reason will cancel each other ?

export 2 files from 2 different DAWs (or 1 daw) and give them to me...i would try to say,,,

and also am talkin bout the sound in real time - dont know about exports

yeah i'm pretty sure buzz and reason would cancel each other out and later i will check if straight audio file cancels out the same file from simpler, but really i can't be arsd to get into another net argument about DIGITAL audio.

also to the person who said if abletons native plugs are bad they wanna switch not sure why you would lose all the learning time you've put in just cos the native plugs were shit, just use vsts.

paravrais wrote:I'm pretty sure this has been proved by exporting tracks from two DAWs then lining the results up in another DAW and inverting the phase on one creating silence. Can't find the link at the moment but can someone back me up here?

Have heard renders from reason, and renders from protools with reason re-wired, and the difference was pretty substantial. But only from a high fidelity perspective.

paravrais wrote:Well there's the workflow, I personally love the way you audition samples in it and warping engine and automation are great to use. Effects wise the overdrive, saturation, compressor and limiter are all really good imo. If you've got the suite version Operator and Tension are badman. The resonator, vinyl effect and vocoder are good too actually. Then there's max for live which opens up whole new worlds to explore. Not to mention all the great controllers built to integrate seemlessly with live (check out Novations website) and in turn the complex live shows you can put together with it.

Personally I think Ableton would be a really hard DAW to move on from because when you're used to a workflow that's that smooth anything else is gonna feel clunky and long afterwards. If you really don't like it then sure move on to something else but don't just switch DAW because you think it will suddenly make you a better producer because it won't. Tons of top level producers use it.

You take the words right outta my mouth! I come from Cubase / Reason combo originally and since switching to Ableton i've never looked back. Like you I will find it hard to move on from this workflow. Totally agree on the effects - the ones you mentioned are particularly good in Ableton.

Also to all those hating on Simpler, you know the suite version has a thing called Sampler as well? They're both good IMO anyways.

nowaysj wrote:

paravrais wrote:I'm pretty sure this has been proved by exporting tracks from two DAWs then lining the results up in another DAW and inverting the phase on one creating silence. Can't find the link at the moment but can someone back me up here?

Have heard renders from reason, and renders from protools with reason re-wired, and the difference was pretty substantial. But only from a high fidelity perspective.

Dunno about Reason, but pretty I think pretty much every major DAW has been demonstrated to do the summing in a bit-for-bit identical fashion. Like if you stick identical audio files in you get identical audio files out.

This isn't really surprising, because summing is adding up a bunch of numbers, and there aren't many magic algorithms for adding up a bunch of numbers.

slothrop wrote: Dunno about Reason, but pretty I think pretty much every major DAW has been demonstrated to do the summing in a bit-for-bit identical fashion. Like if you stick identical audio files in you get identical audio files out.

This isn't really surprising, because summing is adding up a bunch of numbers, and there aren't many magic algorithms for adding up a bunch of numbers.

every daw has a character like every EQ, saturator so on...am not sure if its called compression or smthn like that...

one programmer likes more hiend the other mids - it seems natural to me

paravrais did you have monitors when you used cubase and FL ?

nowaysj wrote:

paravrais wrote:I'm pretty sure this has been proved by exporting tracks from two DAWs then lining the results up in another DAW and inverting the phase on one creating silence. Can't find the link at the moment but can someone back me up here?

Have heard renders from reason, and renders from protools with reason re-wired, and the difference was pretty substantial. But only from a high fidelity perspective.

I did mention earlier that Reason seems to be the one exception. Though I believe this could be because you can't export or hear any sound in Reason without sending it through one of those horrid mixer devices they haven't ever updated.

It isn't really fair to compare Reason in things like this though because propellerhead *want* it to be different. It's designed to emulate using hardware equipment rather than be a digital DAW package like all the other contenders.

I'm a bit drunk now so maybe not writing as eloquently as usual XD

symmetricalsounds wrote:
also to the person who said if abletons native plugs are bad they wanna switch not sure why you would lose all the learning time you've put in just cos the native plugs were shit, just use vsts.

That's me i assume you're refering to.

Live is the only DAW i have ever used, only one i own, and i would think it would be smart to change that. How can i know for sure which DAW works best for ME if im not familiar with any programs except for the one?

I plan on purchasing a fair amount of plugs sometime soon, after i buy my fest tickets for the summer that is. But if i plan on using all these vst plugs vs. the native ones in Live, why not try a new daw? I also noticed that on alot of online music shops, if you go to the Software/DAW section and then switch the sorting to highest rated/most popular, Live is usually far below all the other brands. I think there might be some reason behind this, you know?

The complexity of creating a track in one program, and then sending the project to a seperate one for the mix down. Let's say creation in Logic, and mix in Live(or vice versa). What would you say that is? I do like the workflow i get out of live, but then again, i have nothing to compare it to.

flatfaced wrote:every daw has a character like every EQ, saturator so on...am not sure if its called compression or smthn like that...

one programmer likes more hiend the other mids - it seems natural to me

Redderious wrote:Live is the only DAW i have ever used, only one i own, and i would think it would be smart to change that. How can i know for sure which DAW works best for ME if im not familiar with any programs except for the one?

I plan on purchasing a fair amount of plugs sometime soon, after i buy my fest tickets for the summer that is. But if i plan on using all these vst plugs vs. the native ones in Live, why not try a new daw? I also noticed that on alot of online music shops, if you go to the Software/DAW section and then switch the sorting to highest rated/most popular, Live is usually far below all the other brands. I think there might be some reason behind this, you know?

The complexity of creating a track in one program, and then sending the project to a seperate one for the mix down. Let's say creation in Logic, and mix in Live(or vice versa). What would you say that is? I do like the workflow i get out of live, but then again, i have nothing to compare it to.

There is literally no point making a track in one program and mixing it in another :s if you are going to move to another DAW do it, don't go half way.

That said you are seriously mistaken about Ableton being less popular :s

exhibit a: http://futuregarageforum.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=75

exhibit b: http://www.dnbscene.com/forums/index.php?topic=72.0

You are right that you should have tried more than one program before choosing one but if you are getting along fine with Ableton why change? Switching DAW won't suddenly make you a master, in fact it will slow down your progress quite a bit cos you will have to learn a totally new program. The same goes for all these new plug ins you want to buy, why bother? If you're not a pro with the ones you've got already then why complicate things further by buying more? More expensive plug ins doesn't necessarily = 'better' sound.

There's nothing wrong with downloading some demos of other programs and seeing how you fare with them, if one totally captures your heart then sure go and buy it and put everything into it. Just make sure you wont change your mind again in a few weeks and wanna switch DAW again 'cos the problem aint the DAW, it's you not putting the time/effort in. Don't just buy a copy of Logic and Massive cos you heard "It's the best" on some internet forum, demo things for yourself and don't buy anything unless you know *why* you are buying it and what it's going to do for you.

Redderious wrote:

symmetricalsounds wrote:
also to the person who said if abletons native plugs are bad they wanna switch not sure why you would lose all the learning time you've put in just cos the native plugs were shit, just use vsts.

That's me i assume you're refering to.

Live is the only DAW i have ever used, only one i own, and i would think it would be smart to change that. How can i know for sure which DAW works best for ME if im not familiar with any programs except for the one?

I plan on purchasing a fair amount of plugs sometime soon, after i buy my fest tickets for the summer that is. But if i plan on using all these vst plugs vs. the native ones in Live, why not try a new daw? I also noticed that on alot of online music shops, if you go to the Software/DAW section and then switch the sorting to highest rated/most popular, Live is usually far below all the other brands. I think there might be some reason behind this, you know?

The complexity of creating a track in one program, and then sending the project to a seperate one for the mix down. Let's say creation in Logic, and mix in Live(or vice versa). What would you say that is? I do like the workflow i get out of live, but then again, i have nothing to compare it to.

it might be smart or it might be really stupid...no way of knowing unless you try. one thing though you're not just moving program you're also losing everything you learnt about that program, all those things that used to seem really hard that you can now do in seconds is all gone, obviously your general production skills still count.

whichever DAW you ended up settling on i'd say it's highly likely that you'd still end up using plenty of 3rd party vsts, you'd probably find some native fx+synths you liked and some you didn't. i also wouldn't let some sales/rating influence whether i was going to change program.

rewiring to mixdown tracks in a different DAW is done by plenty of people, from what people say it tends to be the fact they don't like the mixer. i've only used lmms to make music with before, live's mixer is better than that and it's never been something that i feel limits me.

i've used live for 2-3 years and still i feel the limiting factor is me and i don't reckon that is likely to change.

Honestly, any of these daws has more potential than any living or deceased artist could possibly exploit. You could spend a lifetime in Reason and not even scratch the surface of what it is capable of.

Just get on with making music.

Oh, and try maschine, because it is the most fun I've had making music since the 90's

I've always just used logics eq and it works alright, kinda thinkin I should try out some different eq's, I always use the exact same one on everything.

man, ableton filled up my an*s
really
am not a virgin anymore

I just use FL's Parametric EQ and that's more than fine imo.

gen_ wrote:No, your right there, Abletons built in EQ8 is pretty terible imo. I should have known. Get yourself any freeware EQ and it will perform 10 times better.

Unless you know how to use it. Ableton's EQ is simply a "soft" eq, which means you can really push it.

Also - I hate to be an ass (actually that's not true, I relish it!) - but you guys don't know what you're talking about if you think ableton's plugins are shit. If you want to compare say, ableton's plugins with say... Massive - have you used operator at all? Do you know what FM synthesis is? If not, you really have no idea what operator is capable of. If you think live's reverb plugin sounds crap - you haven't messed with the right settings. IF you think it's EQ is lacking, then you don't know how far you can push it.etc.

Honestly - all I've written my shit in lately (except for sampling and distortion) - has ALL been in Ableton's stock stuff.

Learn your tools before you think about jumping ship. A new DAW isn't going to make you any better. If anything, it will make you worse.

amphibian wrote:

gen_ wrote:No, your right there, Abletons built in EQ8 is pretty terible imo. I should have known. Get yourself any freeware EQ and it will perform 10 times better.

Unless you know how to use it. Ableton's EQ is simply a "soft" eq, which means you can really push it.

Also - I hate to be an ass (actually that's not true, I relish it!) - but you guys don't know what you're talking about if you think ableton's plugins are shit. If you want to compare say, ableton's plugins with say... Massive - have you used operator at all? Do you know what FM synthesis is? If not, you really have no idea what operator is capable of. If you think live's reverb plugin sounds crap - you haven't messed with the right settings. IF you think it's EQ is lacking, then you don't know how far you can push it.etc.

Honestly - all I've written my shit in lately (except for sampling and distortion) - has ALL been in Ableton's stock stuff.

Learn your tools before you think about jumping ship. A new DAW isn't going to make you any better. If anything, it will make you worse.

all you've said ^^ except that you can't really push these eqs

amphibian wrote:

gen_ wrote:No, your right there, Abletons built in EQ8 is pretty terible imo. I should have known. Get yourself any freeware EQ and it will perform 10 times better.

Unless you know how to use it. Ableton's EQ is simply a "soft" eq, which means you can really push it.

Also - I hate to be an ass (actually that's not true, I relish it!) - but you guys don't know what you're talking about if you think ableton's plugins are shit. If you want to compare say, ableton's plugins with say... Massive - have you used operator at all? Do you know what FM synthesis is? If not, you really have no idea what operator is capable of. If you think live's reverb plugin sounds crap - you haven't messed with the right settings. IF you think it's EQ is lacking, then you don't know how far you can push it.etc.

Honestly - all I've written my shit in lately (except for sampling and distortion) - has ALL been in Ableton's stock stuff.

Learn your tools before you think about jumping ship. A new DAW isn't going to make you any better. If anything, it will make you worse.

Thanks for straightning some of these things out, amphibian.

To let you know where i'm coming from, i have Ableton(obviously), and some VST synths. All other plugs i use are Live's native plugs. I have been producing for only half a year, and imo i still consider myself a begginer but definitly not a noob. Im a sponge man, i come to this place and just absorb. When i hear that Lives plugs are low quality, i believe it because i have nothing to compare this too.

If you insist that the EQhas good potential if you use it right, what would you use it for? you mentioned it was a 'soft' EQ, is that sorta, kinda, somewhat related to mastering eqs?<guess. I'm kind of iffy on lives filters, again i don't know this from experiance, but just from the sound i get out of them. I might just be polishing shit and theres no hope, who knows .

I don't plan on just straight ballin on Live, but it seems like every single person in this thread sounds so against making a switch to a new DAW. I think variety is good, but not so much that im going to spend 200-400$ on software without planning on which one would be the smartest choice for me.