Dubstepforum.com

back2onett wrote:I guess in some ironic way, spending a load of time on the internet has helped me see more of the world

Perceptions of

kingGhost wrote:Oversaturation is a non-issue to me, I have learned to filter what I like, dislike, and what I know is bullshit.

I have a question for you -

If you do what you say then how do you know a track with a minimal intro isn't slowly building up your emotions piece by piece through a crescendo into a track peak which would absolutely blow your mind? People say 'I know something is shit from blah blah blah in' or 'If I don't like the intro I skip through to see what the rest is like'. What if the music is solely built around a fantastic tension building rise to an emotion you've never even been able to imagine before? You'd miss out.

This brings up something I've said on this forum before regarding paid CD's/Vinyl vs. YouTube-like free music - It may be the same music, but if you bought it you're more likely to give it a proper chance, listen to it from start to finish and pick it up and listen to it again. if you get it for free and you don't like it the first time; chances are it will be disregarded.

It also brings up something else I've spoken of before; production value is as important as the music itself nowadays because so many people who refuse to pay for music will skip it based on production value. If it sounds shit, they won't listen, no matter how good the music is.

In regards to your first question: my favorite band is Godspeed You Black Emperor I give anything a chance, really... unless I can tell it's horrible from the start.

I agree with you about your second point. A lot of people will skip tracks because they got it for free.

And on the third point... I've liked tracks on everything from 4-track cassette tape demos recorded live in bedrooms, to the tightest tuned million dollar singles on CD. I know a few people who appreciate production value a good bit. I see the good in it, but I appreciate the quality of the actual music firsthand.

I dunno, I can see both the good and the bad of the internet's effect on music. Personally I think the good's definitely outweigh the bad's.

wirez wrote:

kingGhost wrote:Oversaturation is a non-issue to me, I have learned to filter what I like, dislike, and what I know is bullshit.

I have a question for you -

If you do what you say then how do you know a track with a minimal intro isn't slowly building up your emotions piece by piece through a crescendo into a track peak which would absolutely blow your mind? People say 'I know something is shit from blah blah blah in' or 'If I don't like the intro I skip through to see what the rest is like'. What if the music is solely built around a fantastic tension building rise to an emotion you've never even been able to imagine before? You'd miss out.

This brings up something I've said on this forum before regarding paid CD's/Vinyl vs. YouTube-like free music - It may be the same music, but if you bought it you're more likely to give it a proper chance, listen to it from start to finish and pick it up and listen to it again. if you get it for free and you don't like it the first time; chances are it will be disregarded.

It also brings up something else I've spoken of before; production value is as important as the music itself nowadays because so many people who refuse to pay for music will skip it based on production value. If it sounds shit, they won't listen, no matter how good the music is.

Youtube and all this streaming biz has actually shaped the way many producers make tunes. You don't really hear many tunes anymore that take until 2/3s in to really come alive. Almost everything that is said in a dubstep track is said within the first 64 bars. It's downhill after that. People don't have the attention spans anymore because you don't need it. Patience is a lost virtue.

As far as filtering out the saturation, you can do it to a certain degree and tbh you basically have to one way or another you have no choice. If you have no job or school or anything and you can sit there for 24/7 and listen to everything you can get your hands on you still can't listen to everything. It's greed that has brought us to this point. To go back to my other post, I would give anything to hear music with a clear conscience or somewhat clear conscience. It is impossible now you are exposed to music from inception now. To go back to a time when a dood playing the harmonica down the street was something that made you drop everything and listen dang. Now we just automatically hate everything and maybe if your lucky something will grow on you. Wow this thread is going deep lol

But I think the sharing of information music aside is a magnificent thing. I think you will see this more as we go along. A lot of major issues going on in our world. The internet may be the only thing that give us a chance to right the wrongs out there just by allowing people to know what the fuck is going on. So glad the media is losing a grip on information.

abZ wrote:Youtube and all this streaming biz has actually shaped the way many producers make tunes. You don't really hear many tunes anymore that take until 2/3s in to really come alive. Almost everything that is said in a dubstep track is said within the first 64 bars. It's downhill after that. People don't have the attention spans anymore because you don't need it. Patience is a lost virtue.

Ironically, people were saying this about rock & roll in the 50's too.

alphacat wrote:

abZ wrote:Youtube and all this streaming biz has actually shaped the way many producers make tunes. You don't really hear many tunes anymore that take until 2/3s in to really come alive. Almost everything that is said in a dubstep track is said within the first 64 bars. It's downhill after that. People don't have the attention spans anymore because you don't need it. Patience is a lost virtue.

Ironically, people were saying this about rock & roll in the 50's too.

You sure about that? The songs in fact are about the same in length and structure as the blues, folk, country that preceded it. But since you said that EDM production is getting to be ALOT like pop music in a lot of ways really. Just without the charismatic frontman lol

abZ wrote:I think you will see this more as we go along. A lot of major issues going on in our world. The internet may be the only thing that give us a chance to right the wrongs out there just by allowing people to know what the fuck is going on. So glad the media is losing a grip on information.

Let me ask you this though, if you were an aspiring global overlord, and after 50 years of concerted effort you had the media completely on lock, would you allow the internet to come along and destroy your control of information? I'll answer for you, no you would not. I think you will in fact see a major contraction in the internet, rather than an expansion. This will not be because people are bored with the internet, it will be because those with a vested interest will find a way through legislation and actual ownership of the hardware that runs the internet to monetize all media and control all information.

As a nascent example of this, look at what bp did with the purchasing of search terms so that when you search oil spill, the first few websites that come up direct you to bp's website. Couple that with threat of felony prosecution for basically taking pictures of the oil spill, and I think it will become apparent what the future holds. This is an extremely simple example of much larger schemes to control information on the web that are just beginning to unfold.

If you want an open and free internet some serious mass political action is required, but we all know that that won't happen because everyone is too busy illegally downloading whyrez's toons.

How much would we know about the spill if we had no Internet? Would be much easier for them to cover up no? I didn't even know about the spill in 80 near Texas until this shit happened.

abZ wrote:

alphacat wrote:

abZ wrote:Youtube and all this streaming biz has actually shaped the way many producers make tunes. You don't really hear many tunes anymore that take until 2/3s in to really come alive. Almost everything that is said in a dubstep track is said within the first 64 bars. It's downhill after that. People don't have the attention spans anymore because you don't need it. Patience is a lost virtue.

Ironically, people were saying this about rock & roll in the 50's too.

You sure about that? The songs in fact are about the same in length and structure as the blues, folk, country that preceded it. But since you said that EDM production is getting to be ALOT like pop music in a lot of ways really. Just without the charismatic frontman lol

Heh. Yeah, I'm sure that people - mostly musicians and critics, and among them mostly Jazzists - really did say that. "Goddamnit! It's all just hook, shimmy, and shake... there's no nuance, no subtle play of tension in it..." - that's what a lot of folks interested in the actual musical form (as opposed to the moral objectors) said.

And while those early rock songs might've borrowed their length & structure (although song length in Blues and Pop music was largely shaped by the short amount of play time on wax cylinder & 78 rpm records) make no mistake that it stopped being a true folk form like its predecessors the moment it started making silly amounts of money. Previously, the musicians kind of knew who their audience was already and did what they did because, well, that's what people expected 'em to do. But when the commercial possibilities appeared above and beyond the initially presumed teenage/lower class niche, that's when shit really started changing. Besides the business angle (and the tons of cash poured into marketing campaigns, technological research on the recording side, the government investigating the "corrupting influence" thereof, etc etc.) - many people who'd never been exposed to Blues or any American folk forms for that matter suddenly heard this music and became attached to it, redefining and claiming it as their own... and mutating it in the process. And that's OK, in retrospect.

My point being that this is all a process and a matter of flux; developments occur, people react, then others react to the reactions of those before them. Where we once had 2:40 blues, along came 3:40 rock & roll, and then in the 60's and 70's we had 12:00 minute tracks and 18:00 minute tracks and whole concept albums where each side was one long song (again that pesky technological playback limitation on time...hmm... ) - and then punk rock finally said "enough!" and brought standard pop song lengths back down again, only for the cycle to re-start... EDM is no exception.

Anyway, fwiw I think what much EDM still lacks - why I say we're still in our AM radio phase - is the live aspect. Not so much a charismatic frontperson, but, well - fuck - people love to watch other people play guitar especially for some reason, probably because of all of the physical nuances that translate directly into sound. This is still mostly lacking from electronic music, but it won't be forever I predict.

alphacat wrote:people love to watch other people play guitar especially for some reason, probably because of all of the physical nuances that translate directly into sound.

When I see people playing the guitar, I feel like shooting them in the chest. I have the same feeling when people are ostentatiously playing a monome with big hand flairs and what not. Just press the little button motherfucker!

nowaysj wrote:

alphacat wrote:people love to watch other people play guitar especially for some reason, probably because of all of the physical nuances that translate directly into sound.

When I see people playing the guitar, I feel like shooting them in the chest. I have the same feeling when people are ostentatiously playing a monome with big hand flairs and what not. Just press the little button motherfucker!

Well that's the show brother you can't get to bitter about that I know what you are saying some of the biggest djs around here are big because of their animation or because they have big dreadlocks flying around while they trainwreck and people go nuts for it. Wish people would clean the junk out of their ears and listen for a change.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127861446

awfully interesting debate, especially for anyone that thinks "the people" are or will be in control of the internet.

abZ wrote:

nowaysj wrote:

alphacat wrote:people love to watch other people play guitar especially for some reason, probably because of all of the physical nuances that translate directly into sound.

When I see people playing the guitar, I feel like shooting them in the chest. I have the same feeling when people are ostentatiously playing a monome with big hand flairs and what not. Just press the little button motherfucker!

Well that's the show brother you can't get to bitter about that I know what you are saying some of the biggest djs around here are big because of their animation or because they have big dreadlocks flying around while they trainwreck and people go nuts for it. Wish people would clean the junk out of their ears and listen for a change.

The worst part? People always, ALWAYS cheer loudest when the guitarist does the hammer-on in his big wankfest solo... a simple two note tap that any fucking trained chimpanzee can do.

Guitarists are definitely overrated; however, whether it's the wanky solo, or monome-sturbation (or laptop rock[gag], or the turntablist who knows how to crab really well while his honky dreads are flying everywhere but nothing else related to proper DJing, or... Weird Al Yankovic) it's this perception of showmanship that garners attention. Which amazingly goes full circle back to the topic at hand (Prince) whose virtuosity is only part of the reason he's so adored... the other part being...

...showmanship.

That motherfucker can not only write, play, arrange, and produce his tunes (like, say, Brian Wilson or Stevie Wonder) - he can also play them live while doing motherfuckin' splits AND singing falsetto in perfect pitch AND playing a hammer-on solo... (unlike, say, Brian Wilson or Stevie Wonder.)

Now any one of these feats in and of themselves aren't too too remarkable, but all of them at the same time - why, that's shit people'll pay good money too see - not to mention if it's being performed by a 5'2" androgyne brutha from Minneapolis (!) ...

The people don't always get it - "it" being what you're laying down - unless you pantomime the fuck out of it for them sometimes...

alphacat wrote:

abZ wrote:Youtube and all this streaming biz has actually shaped the way many producers make tunes. You don't really hear many tunes anymore that take until 2/3s in to really come alive. Almost everything that is said in a dubstep track is said within the first 64 bars. It's downhill after that. People don't have the attention spans anymore because you don't need it. Patience is a lost virtue.

Ironically, people were saying this about rock & roll in the 50's too.

Interesting: http://www.futurehitdna.com/archives/269

What The Top 10 Selling Downloads Have In Common

SHORT INTROS ABOUND (CHAPTER #1)
7 of the top 10 selling downloads had intros of 5 seconds or less. Oddly enough, it’s not just any 7…it’s the TOP 7. Also, those 7 songs alone account for 4% of ALL track sales so far for the year. That’s a pretty huge consolidation of money in that top cluster. Is there any further proof that short intros are what drives sales now? In fairness, the 8th, 9th & 10th selling downloads had longer intros (12, 21 and 29 seconds respectively) so it is certainly still possible to sell with long intros. However, the odds are clearly against you. And, by the way, if you averaged all 10 songs…the average intro length is…7 seconds…exactly in line with what I’ve found consistently the past few years.

29 seconds considered "long intros"... I miss the days of dnb where tunes often didn't drop until 3 minutes. Epic intros abound.

well this has turned into an interesting debate if nothing else

Far too much to respond too directly but in no particular order;

Been thinking myself that dnb went to shit about the time internet really started being a 'everyone has at home' kinda thing, too many people on DOA trying to find out how to make the perfect dnb tune without puttin in the legwork and ending up with 1000s of copycat tunes. Much as ive leanred a ton of stuff so many people want spoon feeding these days, it drives me mad, i never respond on here as such but might start.

'ive "got hold of/picked up" (those phrases ) FL/Massive/Albino and spent 12 minutes and i cant get sick tunes pleaz give me presets. Im from the generation when i had to save up £1000 for my first keyboard then another grand for a sampler, these days you have 10x the power in an afternoon but no learning curve. Think i did my best stuff with a 'workstation' and a sampler, and a tiny mixer, sounded like crap but most creative times and learned so much, by myself, the best knowledge IMO.

This barrier to production was a great filter you had to be ridiculously dedicated to even get a basic setup. then spend a day chopping one break on a 2x16 screen on the akai, you can do this in 30s now while watching a film. But this filter meant only the most dedicated could get a tune together. While im moaning, another pet peeve is these people who say 'check my new tune, its not finished, the mixdowns not right and i need to find some new samples'.... grr, wtf comment do you want? I feel sorry for labels these days.

I also grew up far before the internet and remember getting my first rave tape off a smackhead in rugby in exchange for a pack of cigarettes ( again) - there was always someone with an older brother or summat who was at uni who got tapes... used to mission into birmingham and check out the shops... The internet does make things easier but also harder in a way as youre inundated with shite, never use myspace anymore for that reason, or soundcloud tbh. XXX has privately shared a track with you and 23845 other people...

i also think its a bit sad people who are good at marketing themselves get further than people who write interesting original music but thats prob always been the same.

i miss the epic intro's too. Cant believe 29 secs is a long intro. My latest EP is 30-60s ish and even they sound short.

But having said all that it sounds like the ranting of an old man who hates what 'da kids' are doing, as has happened since time immemorial. Bloody kids, dont know how easy youve got it. Despite all that, some people do still break thru and 'make it', deadmaus being one, prob others, i dont follow anything, no tv or radio, so dont know particulars. I think the godawful 80s/90s manufactured band thing is dying off now in this newer age of information but could be wrongs.

/grandad rant.

Good discussion tho dsf, makes a change from datsik/wobbles/sidechaining etc, and shows that all these things arent all that important in the grand scheme of things...

paradigm x wrote:I think the godawful 80s/90s manufactured band thing is dying off now in this newer age of information but could be wrongs.

I think you are wrongs. They biggies are clinging to that shit like it is the last chopper out of Saigon.

I love threads like this one

Anyway, yeah. The internet ended up being a double-bladed sword. One side being that you can easily find new music and artists and the other one being that you get flooded with information and products not up to par.

@paradigm x

But do you actually think entry barriers are something good? I'm not sure. Yes, it does indeed filter out people who don't want to spend enough time on learing things. Yes it does filter out people that want to make filthy bangers 1 month after downloading a DAW. And that's a good thing. But don't you think that in a way this has limited a large amount of people to get into these stuff? A diamond here and there, I'm sure, we've missed this way.

Indeed, a lot of shit tunes have been made and spammed a lot, and this clutters up the flow of information. And it's not fair to people who spend astonishing amounts of time perfecting their skills. But it's also not fair to ban people, who end up being amazing musicians, from trying their hand at making music just because they don't have the dough.

In Bulgaria the minimum wage is around 120 pounds. What can you do with such an amount of money? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I feel lucky that while I was growing up, my parents worked real hard in order to get promoted and make more money, so they can provide my brother and me with what we needed and later in life - what we wanted.

Anyway, I was on about the fact that in some countries you have to work real hard to supply yourself with equipment for thousands of pounds just to try your hand at making music. Not everybody has a friend that makes music, and this also shouldn't stop you from trying. I used to go to piano lessons when I was in kindergarten, but my parents didn't have enough money to continue paying the fees so I stopped. If it hadn't been for the internet, from where one of my classmates downloaded FL, I probably would have ended doing something else.



Cheers!

Disco Nutter wrote:@paradigm x

But do you actually think entry barriers are something good? I'm not sure. Yes, it does indeed filter out people who don't want to spend enough time on learing things. Yes it does filter out people that want to make filthy bangers 1 month after downloading a DAW. And that's a good thing. But don't you think that in a way this has limited a large amount of people to get into these stuff? A diamond here and there, I'm sure, we've missed this way.

it filters out the lazy and unimaginative. Not a bad thing IMO. ! I worked my nuts off for 2 1/2 years to save up for my new keyboard, then learned how to use it backwards. IMO that made me a better producer. Compared to someone who has £8k of vsts in his limewire folder but cant work out how to put massive in FL... and cant be arsed to spend an hour rtfm or trying, and then posts annoying questions...

If youre that dedicated to save up buy and learn youll make much better music imo... thats all i was getting at.

I know what you mean tho,

part of the sense of entitlement the new age of internet has brought, i want this daw, film, album for free, right now. And i want to be a producer. Dunno, maybe thats fair enough... ? I think you need to work for stuff tho. I suppose if its just a daft hobby like playing computer games then no harm really.

paradigm x wrote:

Disco Nutter wrote:@paradigm x

But do you actually think entry barriers are something good? I'm not sure. Yes, it does indeed filter out people who don't want to spend enough time on learing things. Yes it does filter out people that want to make filthy bangers 1 month after downloading a DAW. And that's a good thing. But don't you think that in a way this has limited a large amount of people to get into these stuff? A diamond here and there, I'm sure, we've missed this way.

it filters out the lazy and unimaginative. Not a bad thing IMO. ! I worked my nuts off for 2 1/2 years to save up for my new keyboard, then learned how to use it backwards. IMO that made me a better producer. Compared to someone who has £8k of vsts in his limewire folder but cant work out how to put massive in FL... and cant be arsed to spend an hour rtfm or trying, and then posts annoying questions...

If youre that dedicated to save up buy and learn youll make much better music imo... thats all i was getting at.

I know what you mean tho,

part of the sense of entitlement the new age of internet has brought, i want this daw, film, album for free, right now. And i want to be a producer. Dunno, maybe thats fair enough... ? I think you need to work for stuff tho. I suppose if its just a daft hobby like playing computer games then no harm really.

i still remember the good old darkland forum days when i refused to register on doa and just lurked everwhere but aim or irc...
now look at us

I never meant that you shouldn't pay for things. I just meant that money should be no obstacle in trying your hand at it.

In a perfect world, there would be places everywhere, where you could try out everything and then splash out money.