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guerillaeye wrote:i dont see globalization as a bad thing, per say.. only the "view" of globalization being sought after by the global elite. if we all worked together as one world.. there would be no 3rd world.. because every country would be even.. we would be helping the "economy" at the same time that we would be "healing the world" ... it wouldnt matter where a company was based out of, because its all one dollar. there would be tax brakes for a business for opening its doors in an area that needs more commerce, and higher taxes in areas that dont.. just like it is in the usa. except companies increase profit margins dramatically by outsourcing to destitute countries where they can pay well under the standard of living and pocket the rest as net profit.. if it was all an even playing field, if it was the same damn dollar (or pound, euro, whatever) all over.. and a loaf of bread cost the same in afganistan as it does in NYC..


i dont know if that makes total sense to me.. it does, but it may be too far out of reality.. which i find myself far too often.

and yo.. ThoughtBombing.. big up to you sir. it all falls into place.

yeah a friend and i had a discussion about how the idea of globalization has been co-opted and turned into a capitalist methodolgy, rather than a method to unite people.

basically it means borders have no meaning for capital, but those same borders can control the laborers. so the money and jobs go elsewhere, and you're stuck where you are with no job. i can't even be articulate today because my fuckin teeth hurt so bad i wanna cry, so i guess this little rant is still on topic.

ThoughtBombing wrote:

pk- wrote:so is there no free medical care in the US at all?

i mean...surely if you're completely fucked, they're not going to turn you away from a hospital are they?

They have to save your life, but once you are "stable" they will kick you out of the front door of the hospital. In this movie, there is actually footage of elderly, indigent, mentally ill persons being let out of cabs and walking into the middle of the road... the HOSPITAL did this to them.

I was told that I could not have a round of chemo until I paid for it up front... I couldn't even go into debt to get the treatment. And when I cried like a little girl, the woman at the desk said "hey kid, we're going to have to ask you to leave..."

I was escorted out of the hospital by security. Armed guards...

Why have armed guards at the hospital? Because skinny ass guys like me, who were deathly ill are a threat.

....thats too dark... if i was rich in america i would go round the hospitals paying for peoples treatment while also funding a coo to overthrow the republicans.

J_J wrote:
....thats too dark... if i was rich in america i would go round the hospitals paying for peoples treatment while also funding a coo to overthrow the republicans.

you wouldnt be rich in america if you went arount to the hospitals paying for peoples treatment.. maybe funding a coo, sure.. but medical bills are stoopid high.

ok so i am 9 minutes into this film and so pissed off and upset i can hardly breathe. dunno if i can take the rest of it.

sapphic_beats wrote:ok so i am 9 minutes into this film and so pissed off and upset i can hardly breathe. dunno if i can take the rest of it.

You take your laptop to the cinema???

Oh, right...I get it

Shonky wrote:

sapphic_beats wrote:ok so i am 9 minutes into this film and so pissed off and upset i can hardly breathe. dunno if i can take the rest of it.

You take your laptop to the cinema???

Oh, right...I get it

usual channels.

but i will prolly drag a few friends to the cinema when it comes out so we can all fall apart.

rekorder wrote:

ThoughtBombing wrote:
I could walk into a hospital in the UK right now and be seen within an hour?

Fuck No

Actually, I fell and gashed my chin open at football today. I was in and out of hospital in under an hour, all patched up.

But yeah, the NHS has serious issues too- funding, staffing, bureaucracy, privitisation, centralisation. But in the end, if you have serious/life-threatening cancer you are gonna get treatment, and its not going to cost you.

Thats the bottom line really.

American system is just... I have no words. ThoughtBombing, my heart goes out to you. If I ever win the lottery, you're getting a hundred grand on the spot!

Is this out in the uk yet? Anybody know where i could hypothetically watch it online sapphic beats stylee?

I am hopefully going to medical school later this year (A levels providing) and have always been concerned with the whole health insurance business they have in america... I figured i should work in the NHS, its understaffed, bureucratic and inefficient in some ways, i always thought it was where i could best use my skills and make a difference (naive doctor crap etc etc) but i am starting to think i might wanna do work in america.

This makes me so angry, if we all supposedly have the right to life, this should extend to EVERYONE, at all possible times, even when sick and poor. Denying an ill person healthcare is like denying someone oxygen, and is almost if not as bad as putting a gun to their head.

As for Cuba, say whatever the hell you like about Castro, a country that has gone from a mafia outpost surrounded by poverty to a country that currently has the most medical aid workers abroad sounds pretty damn sucessful. As for any complaints of "communism" etc ever heard anyone who wasn't rich and healthy complain about that one?

I am so proud that we have an NHS in this country, flawed and troubled though it may be, and if brown or cameron or anyone try to privatise it they will have to come through me and a hell of a lot of people to do it, no fucking way are we ending up like the stuff i have read tonight.

Right, now i might need to pop down to my local hospital to get my blood pressure looked at. FOR FREE

the thing that makes me laugh is the where we got the money from to start the nhs.

after the war, we were seriously fucked for money, so some mp dude went to america and basically said due to the fact you left it right til the end to join the war, and becuase of this, the uk is fucked, you should give us a few billion dollars please. lol the usa said fuck you, we'll lend it you. and we've only just paid them back.
honest truth. its all in the documentary they took the interviews with tony ben from for sicko.

that wasn't just for the nhs though, those loans were generally to sort the country out. the nhs got most of its initial money from taking over private hospitals & their funds, which sounds like it wouldn't be a bad idea to try in the US

im not happy with the current healthcare system in america, but michael moore is a bastard. watching him talk about healthcare is like john holmes talking about the importance of abstinence. Hes so manipulative... dont believe everything you see on tv/teh hinternet/movies, kay gais?

michael moore is a don

Parson wrote:michael moore is a don

please 'splain.

Misk wrote:

Parson wrote:michael moore is a don

please 'splain.

his real name's Donald, Michael is just a stage name invented to give him an air of celebrity.

Jubscarz wrote:

Misk wrote:

Parson wrote:michael moore is a don

please 'splain.

his real name's Donald, Michael is just a stage name invented to give him an air of celebrity.

thats not true, cos donald duck was actually called michael duck, but changed his name to donald to create the air of celebrity you mention.

http://www.moorewatch.com/

First of all, my personal politics are of the far-left persuasion, so don't go callin me some conservative baatty. But Michael Moore is a joke because he lies to achive his own political end. Employing the techiques of the ruling right is never going to achieve anything for the left but to polarise people further. Propaganda is propaganda. See through that shit people.

Yes Bush lies. There are lies from the Bush administration which should concern everyone. For example, the Bush administration suppressed data from its own Department of Health and Human Services which showed that the cost of the new Prescription Drug Benefit would be much larger than the administration claimed. This lie was critical to passage of the Bush drug benefit bill. Similarly, Bush's characterization of his immigration proposal as not granting "amnesty" to illegal aliens is quite misleading; although the Bush proposal does not formally grant amnesty, the net result is the same as widespread amnesty. As one immigration reform group put it, "Any program that allows millions of illegal aliens to receive legal status in this country is an amnesty." Readers who want a scathing, and factually reliable, critique of the Bush administration might enjoy James Bovard's new book The Bush Betrayal (Palgrave MacMillan, 2004). Another good choice is All the President's Spin: George W. Bush, the Media, and the Truth, by Ben Fritz, Bryan Keefer, and Brendan Nyhan (Touchstone, 2004).

But two wrongs don't make a right, and the right response to Presidential lies is not more lies from his political opponents. Moreover, regarding the issues presented in Fahrenheit 9/11, the evidence of Bush lies is extremely thin. Moore shows Bush claiming that a particular day at the ranch in Crawford, Texas, was a working vacation, but Bush appears to be dissembling. Later, after Osama bin Laden was driven into hiding but was not captured, Bush unconvincingly claims not to spend much time thinking about bin Laden. Within Fahrenheit 9/11, most of the rest of alleged Bush administration lies actually involve Moore's fabrications to create the appearance of a lie--such as when Moore chops a Condoleezza Rice quote to make her say something when she actually said the opposite.

The one significant Bush administration lie exposed in the film involves the so-called USA PATRIOT Act; as Fahrenheit accurately claims, at least some of the material in the USA PATRIOT Act had nothing to do with 9/11, and instead involved long-sought items on the FBI agenda which had previously been unable to pass Congress, but which were enacted by Congress under Bush administration assurances that they were essential to fighting terrorism.

If you look up the noun "deceit" in the dictionary, you will find that the definitions point you to the verb "deceive." According to Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary, the main (non-archaic or obsolete) definition of "deceive" is "to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid." Although the evidence in this report demonstrates dozens of plain deceits by Moore, there are some "deceits" in this report regarding which reasonable people may disagree. So if you find me unpersuasive on, for example, three alleged deceits, consider this article to have identified "Fifty-six Deceits" rather than fifty-nine. Whether or not you agree with me on every single item, I think you will agree that the evidence is undeniable that Fahrenheit 9/11 is filled with deceit.

Quite obviously, there are many patriotic Americans who oppose George Bush and who think the Iraq War was a mistake. But Moore's deceitful movie offers nothing constructive to help people form their opinions. To use lies and frauds to manipulate people is contrary to the very essence of democracy, which requires people to make rational decisions based on truthful information. It's wrong when a President lies. It's wrong when a talk radio host lies. And it's wrong when a film-maker lies.

---

PRL.

Parson wrote:michael moore is a don

Parson wrote:michael moore is a don

seriously tho, i cant help but surmise that the US gov'ment paid him to be "that guy". bit of disinformation never hurt us, right?

I really think that by making room for someone like donald michael moore, the goverment gives the people who are displeased with it, the ability to safely let off steam by living vicariously through a movie. I'd like to make my own opinions thx.

the_pearl wrote:http://www.moorewatch.com/

First of all, my personal politics are of the far-left persuasion, so don't go callin me some conservative baatty. But Michael Moore is a joke because he lies to achive his own political end. Employing the techiques of the ruling right is never going to achieve anything for the left but to polarise people further. Propaganda is propaganda. See through that shit people.

Yes Bush lies. There are lies from the Bush administration which should concern everyone. For example, the Bush administration suppressed data from its own Department of Health and Human Services which showed that the cost of the new Prescription Drug Benefit would be much larger than the administration claimed. This lie was critical to passage of the Bush drug benefit bill. Similarly, Bush's characterization of his immigration proposal as not granting "amnesty" to illegal aliens is quite misleading; although the Bush proposal does not formally grant amnesty, the net result is the same as widespread amnesty. As one immigration reform group put it, "Any program that allows millions of illegal aliens to receive legal status in this country is an amnesty." Readers who want a scathing, and factually reliable, critique of the Bush administration might enjoy James Bovard's new book The Bush Betrayal (Palgrave MacMillan, 2004). Another good choice is All the President's Spin: George W. Bush, the Media, and the Truth, by Ben Fritz, Bryan Keefer, and Brendan Nyhan (Touchstone, 2004).

But two wrongs don't make a right, and the right response to Presidential lies is not more lies from his political opponents. Moreover, regarding the issues presented in Fahrenheit 9/11, the evidence of Bush lies is extremely thin. Moore shows Bush claiming that a particular day at the ranch in Crawford, Texas, was a working vacation, but Bush appears to be dissembling. Later, after Osama bin Laden was driven into hiding but was not captured, Bush unconvincingly claims not to spend much time thinking about bin Laden. Within Fahrenheit 9/11, most of the rest of alleged Bush administration lies actually involve Moore's fabrications to create the appearance of a lie--such as when Moore chops a Condoleezza Rice quote to make her say something when she actually said the opposite.

The one significant Bush administration lie exposed in the film involves the so-called USA PATRIOT Act; as Fahrenheit accurately claims, at least some of the material in the USA PATRIOT Act had nothing to do with 9/11, and instead involved long-sought items on the FBI agenda which had previously been unable to pass Congress, but which were enacted by Congress under Bush administration assurances that they were essential to fighting terrorism.

If you look up the noun "deceit" in the dictionary, you will find that the definitions point you to the verb "deceive." According to Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary, the main (non-archaic or obsolete) definition of "deceive" is "to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid." Although the evidence in this report demonstrates dozens of plain deceits by Moore, there are some "deceits" in this report regarding which reasonable people may disagree. So if you find me unpersuasive on, for example, three alleged deceits, consider this article to have identified "Fifty-six Deceits" rather than fifty-nine. Whether or not you agree with me on every single item, I think you will agree that the evidence is undeniable that Fahrenheit 9/11 is filled with deceit.

Quite obviously, there are many patriotic Americans who oppose George Bush and who think the Iraq War was a mistake. But Moore's deceitful movie offers nothing constructive to help people form their opinions. To use lies and frauds to manipulate people is contrary to the very essence of democracy, which requires people to make rational decisions based on truthful information. It's wrong when a President lies. It's wrong when a talk radio host lies. And it's wrong when a film-maker lies.

---

PRL.

is there a debatestepforum you can post this on?

seriously, this is too long, but i actually read most of it. i agree with you

.

double post.